So, how about a titanium thrust washer?
- Thread starter Reign_Maker
- Start date
Someone said no... Please tell me why you wouldnt think it would work... I'd like some intelligent responses to this, because I can get this done... Inexspensively... *cough*free*cough* So before I have the guy make it for me, I'd like to get some input, logical input... If this works, and if it can take the 600-700+ pounds of torque Im gunna throw at it, then it might be an option for us... And I may be able to get a small production run made...
Reign_Maker said:
I acutally did R&D on this back when I was still running the shop. The problem we found wasn't the material. It's the splash lubrication system that causes the problem. Friction and heat are the issue, not material hardness. Most of the time when you tear it down the washer has actually welded itself. True high end synthetic gear oil would probably help a lot more.
I doubt it would hurt to have one made out of a tougher material, but in the end I think the original problem will still be there.
Well, heat being the problem, I know titanium handles heat extremely well... Inconel would handle the heat as well, but I dont think it has the hardness of titanium, will have to look into that, but also I dont know if I can get inconel that thick...
CTsupra
Supramania Contributor
well one thign i know about tie is it will got out of shape easy but will nto snap but deform it all depends on what tie you use as well
remmber good fish nets are made form titium or how ever iut is spelt caus eit can stch and not snap easy
remmber good fish nets are made form titium or how ever iut is spelt caus eit can stch and not snap easy
I second that.... although I think I know.... just too worn down at....ValgeKotkas said:Whats a thrust washer?
I was thinking for the engine at first, lol.. if you make one make an extra.. I will buy it from you.. I havea broke trans I think its a thrust washer, and going to rebuild it soon and would like to throw something beefy in there..
Supracentral said:
Hey Mike
where you in that discussion we had here with myself, IJ. and Grant also on this very subject? The only thing that I though to help with cooling that area also was active lubrication or molybendium coating of the thrust washer.
basically we came to the same conclusion that the thrust washer is welding itself so for sure it is a heat/lube issue.
But we also came to another conclusion regarding the Thrust washer itself. No one has done a Rockwell Hardness test on it to determine if going to a different material will actually be better or not.
Adjuster
Supramania Contributor
Better oil.
Coatings.
Possibly design a better oil grove setup so they do not create weak areas in the material.
Here is what I did.
Completely smoothed all sharp edges.
Coated it with molydisulfied.
I'm running Mobile 1 and some Royal purple in the trans, and I'm about to drain that and re-fill with Redline gear lube.
So far, no problems. (I'd have liked to change up to the triple cone synchro's used on the latest version of this transmission, but it was not an option when I re-built mine.)
I also coated everything but the gears on this transmision. (Thermal dispersants, molydisulfied etc.) Seems to have lowered the operating temps by quite a bit. (No actual readings of before and after other than my hand has noticed the shifter lever is cool now even after running all day when it used to get very hot before.)
Ok, Ti for the thrust washer. It might work, but the problem is going to be galling. Ti is a very strong metal, but it galls easy. (The surface is screwed up under pressure, especially sliding type pressures.) Ti also is much like aluminum in that it wears out and cracks after being bent or stressed in it's life cycle. (Fatigue.) If you design it so it does not flex much, and coat it so the surface will not gall, then it might be a good metal to use.
My thought on this is that we really just need to machine down the thrustwasher location on both sides so we can fit a thicker washer in there. (And possibly add some pressureized lubrication via holes in the gear teeth?)
I know people have floated the idea of straight cut gears etc, but that is not very street friendly. (Might as well get them straight cut and setup for dogs.. if your going to live with the noise anyway, who cares if your transmission sounds like it's going to blow up every time you shift? LOL Dogs love being jammed in and out of gear, and actually wear better when treated rough v/s trying to be easy on the dogs.)
Ok, my final suggestion.
Run a sprung hub clutch disk, and don't drop the clutch off the line with sticky drag tires. (Something has to give, and generally it's the thrust washer that dies.)
Coatings.
Possibly design a better oil grove setup so they do not create weak areas in the material.
Here is what I did.
Completely smoothed all sharp edges.
Coated it with molydisulfied.
I'm running Mobile 1 and some Royal purple in the trans, and I'm about to drain that and re-fill with Redline gear lube.
So far, no problems. (I'd have liked to change up to the triple cone synchro's used on the latest version of this transmission, but it was not an option when I re-built mine.)
I also coated everything but the gears on this transmision. (Thermal dispersants, molydisulfied etc.) Seems to have lowered the operating temps by quite a bit. (No actual readings of before and after other than my hand has noticed the shifter lever is cool now even after running all day when it used to get very hot before.)
Ok, Ti for the thrust washer. It might work, but the problem is going to be galling. Ti is a very strong metal, but it galls easy. (The surface is screwed up under pressure, especially sliding type pressures.) Ti also is much like aluminum in that it wears out and cracks after being bent or stressed in it's life cycle. (Fatigue.) If you design it so it does not flex much, and coat it so the surface will not gall, then it might be a good metal to use.
My thought on this is that we really just need to machine down the thrustwasher location on both sides so we can fit a thicker washer in there. (And possibly add some pressureized lubrication via holes in the gear teeth?)
I know people have floated the idea of straight cut gears etc, but that is not very street friendly. (Might as well get them straight cut and setup for dogs.. if your going to live with the noise anyway, who cares if your transmission sounds like it's going to blow up every time you shift? LOL Dogs love being jammed in and out of gear, and actually wear better when treated rough v/s trying to be easy on the dogs.)
Ok, my final suggestion.
Run a sprung hub clutch disk, and don't drop the clutch off the line with sticky drag tires. (Something has to give, and generally it's the thrust washer that dies.)
The thrust washer in my first trans(the cars original) broke in half while running a high performance grease with what they reffered to as shock protection additives. It broke upon nailing the throttle in second gear at 4000 rpm. In all fairness to the transmission this was after roughly 30 1/8th mile passes and 30 dyno runs over 500 rwhp and 10 over 600 rwhp. It would be nice to come up with a forced lube set up like they run in truck transmissions, but they are driven of of countershafts in the trans. and are low pressure pumps.
Any pics and dimensions? theres a company out there that makes nothing but washers called seastrom. Maybe a call to their eng staff could help out.
suprageezer said:
well as I stated
no rockwell testing has been done on the OEM washer so it is hard to even say, go with this type of alloy to increase longevity as we don't even know what the stock one is
also no "bearing" based washer was good enough as the calculated load would destroy all bearing based washers in there.
if your worried about heat use inconel. i was welding inconel at work today and you have to heat it up alot before you cna weld it. Also it takes a real good beating. If I can find the article online that was in the welders journal I got the other day then I will post it tommorrow. There was an article in there about how nascar is starting to use inconel on there headers and exhuast cuase it takes heat much better and if and when the car bottoms out on the track it takes to a much better beating then other metal. Thats just my 0.02 cents. But then again titanium is a little cheaper so u can try that first.
figgie said:Electric pumps
Thought about that but wasn't sure how many small 80W90 friendly pumps there were out there? We have some bigger pumps at work and there get pissed off about anything heavier than 15W40 oil. They are also bigger than you would want to mount in the car. I had also kicked around the idea of installing a 1/2" diameter steel tube through the top of the tranny with some 1/8 th " holes in it to spray down on the gearing, but wasn't sure if this would be to big or small of a diameter hole. I guess it's hard to figure out without having a pump and knowing the capabilities of said pump.