running rich, used search, need help

[MA70Snowman]

after reading through the 500 some odd posts that come up when you search "running rich" or "rich fuel", i'm honestly at a loss here. learning from other posts..

here's what I have:
*3" turbo back exhaust (stock cat, going bye soon)
*K&N FIPK
*HKS SSQV
*PVC intercooler pipes
*Profec Spec II (tuned to 11 psi hold)
*LC-1 WB
*AFPR Set to specs according to TSRM and then turned back ~3 psi (because of running rich)
*Bypassed the J-tube
*NO 12v mod,
*NO aftermarket pump,
*NO 550s.

Symptoms:
*using my WB i'm running a pretty consistent 7.5 AFR at cruise/idle
*Boosting 11 psi it'll lean out to a 8.2
*Off the gas at a stop it'll spike lean (of course)
*runs FINE..no stumble, etc
*idles at 1100 RPMS
*Timing is: 12* btdc (unjumpered) and 10* btdc (jumpered)
*no boost/vacuum leaks
*TPS checks OK
*AFM checks Ok (both were visually checked and checked w/ a meter against TSRM)
*STRONG fuel smell, and white smoke out of exhaust at idle. (not alot but you can see it)
*I ditched the Charc canister when i installed my WB (clearance issues) and instead put a "T" Vacuum connector where the can used to be. the bottom hose leading to bottom of engine bay to vent the gas, the others going to stock locations. (is this an okay set-up? i've tried capping the bottom hose to see if it helps.. no)


Sorry for such a long post but I want to be as informative as possible, especially after reading how many of thoses posts where just people trying to clear things up. ANY help is appreciated, I just want a reasonable MPG (for a modded MKIII)

 

[7Mboost]

Maybe you need a SAFC or other fuel tuning device.

 

[GrimJack]

What he said. You need something to balance out the fact that your Fuel Injectors are 25% larger than normal.

 

[MA70Snowman]

What he said. You need something to balance out the fact that your Fuel Injectors are 25% larger than normal.

why are my injectors 25% larger then normal?
i'll assume you read that list as I have NO mod.. and i DO have a aftermarket pump and i do have 550s.. I have NONE of the aforementioned parts. (i'll edit that at the top.

I did have an SAFC II hooked up. but something broke (the screens all jacked) so I disconnected it. (unwired it)
and from what I can tell at this point i shouldn't need an SAFC for fuel tuning YET, if anything i should be running leaner at this point(although a new unit is on the way)

also it was running fine for awhile after installing the WB then I went to use the computer to datalog (done so more then once) and it started just reading plain rich.

 

[GrimJack]

Yes, I read that as you had 550cc injectors installed.

Now it starts to get interesting. Next thing to do IMO is tap into the stock ECU and see what it thinks is happening. Simply plug into the Vf1 and E1 ports on your diagnostic plug with a voltmeter and set your meter to measure 5 volts. Let us know how many volts you are getting from that. It'll fluctuate, don't worry, just ignore the decimals.

 

[MA70Snowman]

Yes, I read that as you had 550cc injectors installed.

Now it starts to get interesting. Next thing to do IMO is tap into the stock ECU and see what it thinks is happening. Simply plug into the Vf1 and E1 ports on your diagnostic plug with a voltmeter and set your meter to measure 5 volts. Let us know how many volts you are getting from that. It'll fluctuate, don't worry, just ignore the decimals.

ahh good idea, i'll try that first thing morrow morning and let you know.

 

[Buddafucco]

If something is wrong with the coolant temp sensor to ecu the car will idle high & run pig rich.

 

[MA70Snowman]

i've been having problems w/ that sensor for awhile, installed a new one, and I have no codes regarding it. maybe i'll fidle around w/ it a bit more just in case. I'll get back w/ the Vf reading shortly though.

 

[jetjock]

From what I see you basically have a stock EFI system that's out of fuel control. That should be an easy problem to resolve using Vf and the stock O2 sensor, which I'm assuming is still connected to the ECU. I'm also assuming you're still using the stock AFM body.

The setup you have for the EVAP system is not correct. It's allowing unmetered air into the engine when the throttle is off idle. Remove the tee and plug the line going to the engine. Leave the hose from the tank open and routed down to the bottom of the firewall. Since you're in California expect to fail your next emissions test. Could be worse as the fine for tampering is huge but seldom enforced.

 

[MA70Snowman]

Yes, I read that as you had 550cc injectors installed.

Now it starts to get interesting. Next thing to do IMO is tap into the stock ECU and see what it thinks is happening. Simply plug into the Vf1 and E1 ports on your diagnostic plug with a voltmeter and set your meter to measure 5 volts. Let us know how many volts you are getting from that. It'll fluctuate, don't worry, just ignore the decimals.

okay, i'm at 4.96 volts when jumping the Vf1 and E1 (at idle)
(after reading more)
The O2 sensor is brand new (both the WB and NB sensors)

 

[jetjock]

Ugh, don't be jumping Vf to E1. I assume you really meant T and E. Don't be jumping that either when checking Vf. The Vf terminal has several modes, you need T and E to be open to use the one Grim's talking about.

 

[MA70Snowman]

From what I see you basically have a stock EFI system that's out of fuel control. That should be an easy problem to resolve using Vf and the stock O2 sensor, which I'm assuming is still connected to the ECU. I'm also assuming you're still using the stock AFM body.

The setup you have for the EVAP system is not correct. It's allowing unmetered air into the engine when the throttle is off idle. Remove the tee and plug the line going to the engine. Leave the hose from the tank open and routed down to the bottom of the firewall. Since you're in California expect to fail your next emissions test. Could be worse as the fine for tampering is huge but seldom enforced.

Hey thanks for the insight JJ, that makes more sense about it letting air in at idle. I however don't have to worry TO much about california emissions. Perks of being military and home of residence in Texas :naughty: also i keep the majority of my stock parts, in the event i need to revert something later down the line (emissions)

and yes the stock o2 is still connected and the stock afm body, but as stated the O2 is new (2 months old maybe 2 weeks of driving time) and the AFM electronics checked out good according to TSRM.

 

[MA70Snowman]

Ugh, don't be jumping Vf to E1. I assume you really meant T and E. Don't be jumping that either when checking Vf. The Vf terminal has several modes, you need T and E to be open to use the one Grim's talking about.

i'm sorry i should have writen that clearer,. the T and E are UNjumpered. and i connected my voltmeter to the Vf1 and the E1 to get the reading. (yeah i read that post about the 3 modes you had, very handy, although you could have explained the 5 steps of the Vf reading in your post to prevent more searching, i had to do a little more digging to find what each reading ment.)

UPDATE: okay caped the vacuum line, the Vf is now reading 2.2 and fluxs when i play w/ the the throttle. wb gauge is still reading 7.5 but its easier to get it out of rich now (i.e before i'd rev it a little and let off the gas to cause a lean condition and it would stay pegged a couple times. now i can jab the gas once and it'll hit 22.2 for a second before comming back to 7.5)

 

[jetjock]

Ah, I see. Ok, you're off the hook for emissions. Well, you claim to be rich but your Vf shows the ECU is adding fuel. Doesn't make sense. I'd be wondering about the WB at this point.

Jumper T and E. Run the engine at 2500 rpm while measuring Vf. Look for two things: 1) It switches between 0 and 5 volts more than 8 times in 10 seconds and 2) The average voltage. It should be 2.5 volts. If it is your WB is lying to you.

Edit: Ok, saw your edit. A Vf of 2.2 at a steady rpm above idle is good news. There is no way that could be happening if the mixture was really 7.5. Your WB must be goofy.

 

[MA70Snowman]

Ah, I see. Ok, you're off the hook for emissions. Well, you claim to be rich but your Vf shows the ECU is adding fuel. Doesn't make sense. I'd be wondering about the WB at this point.

Jumper T and E. Run the engine at 2500 rpm while measuring Vf. Look for two things: 1) It switches between 0 and 5 volts more than 8 times in 10 seconds and 2) The average voltage. It should be 2.5 volts. If it is your WB is lying to you.

roger that, i'll try that right now get back to you in a second.

UPDATE: okay it stayed Pegged at .01 volts the entire of 20 seconds (2 cycles to make sure), also i'm going to go out and hook the computer up to the LC-1 and have it revert to factory defaults just incase. see if that doesn't clear things up. but i'm still puzzled by the .01 volts, 2.2 should be good and abviously its fluxing, so why would it pegg at .01v

UPDATE2: okay after hooking up the computer to my WB. its getting the same reading as my gauges, at factory defaults, i reved the engine to 3k rpms, it was fluxing BAD, all i would get were damn near verticle lines on my graph (8min 22.5max) i had to use the smooth feature to 4.2 secs and could finally see it.. it avg around 17 -19 AFR but VERY spikey

 

[jetjock]

Hmmm. This is getting even more confusing. Until we get decent data it's going to be tough to solve. Vf with the jumper in and the engine off idle is an emulated version of the O2 signal. 0 volts means lean, not rich.

Time to start looking at the raw data on OX instead of Vf. Set your meter to millivolts for that and at 2500 rpm look for OX to be switching between about 200 and 800 millivolts with an average of around 450 millivolts. This is the only way we're going to know for sure if fuel control has been lost.

Forget the WB for now. It's not controlling the engine. When dealing with mixture problems involving steady state operating conditions ie; idle and cruise but *not* WOT, the NB OX signal is what matters. Not only is it controlling the engine but it's specifically made to be accurate at 14.7 a/f. It and Vf are powerful troubleshooting tools when used under those conditions.

 

[MA70Snowman]

just a time killer for yah JJ here's 2 sessions I ran while reseting the WB,

 

[MA70Snowman]

Hmmm. This is getting even more confusing. Until we get decent data it's going to be tough to solve. Vf with the jumper in and the engine off idle is an emulated version of the O2 signal. 0 volts means lean, not rich.

Time to start looking at the raw data on OX instead of Vf. Set your meter to millivolts for that and at 2500 rpm look for OX to be switching between about 200 and 800 millivolts with an average of around 450 millivolts. This is the only way we're going to know for sure if fuel control has been lost.

Forget the WB for now. It's not controlling the engine. When dealing with mixture problems involving steady state operating conditions ie; idle and cruise but *not* WOT, the NB OX signal is what matters. Not only is it controlling the engine but it's specifically made to be accurate at 14.7 a/f. It and Vf are powerful troubleshooting tools when used under those conditions.

now while i go out and try that, would it not be a good idea to tap the WB analog 1 output into the ECU and just ditch the stock 02? then from what i could tell the ECU would be getting the reading from the LC-1... however until things are stable I don't even feel thats a good idea. back in a tick.

EDIT: after re-reading your post, maybe i missed something during the first test. but isn't this test the exact same as previous, just in milivolts instead of 5volts? just to clarify, what i did in the first test, was Jumper the T and E, reved engine to 2500rpms. and then measured voltage between Vf and E (the same E that was jumpered). now for this test am I reading that I will be doing the EXACT same procedure, just reading in milis?

 

[jetjock]

Yeah, don't be giving fuel control to that WB until you know it's OK. Too many variables involved there. Myself, I'm not a fan of doing that anyway although lots of people do.

Yes, the test is the same except you can leave T and E open. You'll be reading the raw O2 signal rather than an ECU processed version of it. Raw data is always better because it's the nitty-gritty of things. It can be more difficult to interpret though. If your meter has an recording or min/max/average function use it.

 

[MA70Snowman]

Yeah, don't be giving fuel control to that WB until you know it's OK. Too many variables involved there. Myself, I'm not a fan of doing that anyway although lots of people do.

Yes, the test is the same except you can leave T and E open. You'll be reading the raw O2 signal rather than an ECU processed version of it. Raw data is always better because it's the nitty-gritty of things. It can be more difficult to interpret though. If your meter has an recording or min/max/average function use it.

unfortunatly i have a fairly cheap multimeter, (40$ from sears) but no min/max/avg. and that first sentance threw me for a loop. "its the SAME, except you can leave the T and E open" so does that mean i'm just putting the multimeter on Vf and E1 and NO jumpers, (the same way i would normally read the vf?)

any how, i preformed THIS test: jumpered T1 and E1, attatched one probe on the multimeter to the E1 (used an alligator clip to secure it to the jumper) and then put the other probe in Vf, set it to milis, reved the engine to 2500 rpms (or there abouts) and pulled a CONSTANT reading of 220 milivolts.