Running rich as #@*&

[jetjock]

^ Either sensor will work with the larger housing.

...No unfortunately 10.2 afr is not a typo. I know ideal is 14.7, but my motor will not lean out any further then 10.2:1.

I r corn-fuzed. If you know 14.7 is ideal why did you say 10.2 was normal? And your problem is not TPS related. Still ought to fix the code though.

 

[ca91mkIII]

The reason I said 10.2 is normal is because it is abnormally normal for my motor since I put it back together. Its been running rich since I finished reassembling everything back in August. The ecu will not lean the air fuel ratio out any further then 10.2:1. I know the tps problem won't fix the running rich part but I'm hoping it will help somewhere in my mountain of issues.

 

[Grandavi]

im wondering a couple things...
Firstly... you said you have a Lexus AFM upgrade with (what I believe) stock electronics. This is definitely needed if your running with the 560 cc injectors. Are the injectors high or low impedance? Second, I wonder about your 10.2:1 AFR's. Not being an expert in this area, I'm wondering if your still running with a stock ECU installed or on sole standalone and also, where are you pulling your AFR reading from? What gauge/sensor?
Im just going logically and if your running 10.2:1 (and that is indeed what the stock ECU sees) your going to be doing some odd things. Not quite sure how the ECU would handle that because it wants to see a 14.5'ish:1 at cruise and idle. 10.2:1 is nice for acceleration as the ECU tries to prevent problems, but I would assume the AEM would deal with that. So... that makes me wonder how you tuned this puppy....

Again, Im not by any means an expert, but from the parts I think your running, this should be a really bang on setup. The only part I don't understand is the EVO injectors (not familiar with those). If you are indeed running the Innovate AFR, that is supposed to be a very accurate sensor/gauge.

As another small note, I found that while running a similar set up (no cam upgrades though and using 550 injectors), I would overfeed at high revs and had to cut my fuel pressure back to about 26 psi. If I didn't, I would bonewash the cylinders at anything above 4800 RPM as I just had too much fuel flowing (no standalone or piggy back at that point, just the AFPR and 550's running off the ECU with the Lexus AFM upgrade).

All the little uncontrollable's along with the limitations of running this way is what kicked me into doing the standalone/T4 setup. Not being a tuner, I don't know if a bad tune would be able to do this.. but that was my first thought.


remember.. Im just blurting out thoughts... Im not a mechanic... because Im curious how this ends.

 

[7M4EVR]

The Evo injectors are plug n play. And OP the reason I sounded like an ass is because these kinds of threads are really annoying. Your first post gives very limited information then everyone has to keep asking what you have done. Then you dont really come back saying things that you have tried that actually have anything to do with your symptoms other than the boost leak test. If your running this rich and are hitting fuel cut at that little of boost that is bot normal. You wont need a piggyback to get it running good AFRs with your mods. If you do u have other issues. You should be able to do everything you need to do with the wideband, your lexus screw, the afpr, and monitoring VF.

 

[jetjock]

Being that rich should be easy to find. People seem to forget that, assuming basics are correct, all the TCCS needs to get mixture within 1% of optimum is proper speed and load signals. It's why the system is usually falsely blamed.

 

[IndigoMKII]

can't the tps being uncalibrated effect timing to a degree? I know it won't cause 10.2 afr at idle.

 

[Grandavi]

Tps:
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?S=FI&P=102

http://www.supramania.com/forums/sh...librating-the-TPS-on-an-89-supra-7m-gte/page4

Those 2 threads are a little helpful although I think the TSRM is a tad oversimplified. Good for those that have a full understanding, but weak on details for people that don't generally play with some things like I don't.

It's possibly the TPS, but I didn't think that it being off would "flood" the engine like that.


To the OP: on this forum I would never call some of these guys "douches". Most have excellent suggestions, but have been here for years helping us idjits. Not everyone will give you a great answer, but remember... They are being mechanics on imaginary cars with enough missing info that they could appear on a game show called "Guess why the Supra don't drive".

Try courtesy at all times so that the one guy with the correct answer doesn't ignore your thread.

Just a thought...


As a personal question, would the o2 sensor ever cause this?

 

[jetjock]

No. Doesn't have the authority. Neither does the TPS. Again:

...People seem to forget that, assuming basics are correct, all the TCCS needs to get mixture within 1% of optimum is proper speed and load signals. ...

 

[ca91mkIII]

This may sound like a stupid question but what the heck is monitoring the VF mean? I haven't gotten to trying anything yet as it has been raining and work, but I will as soon as I get a chance.

I am currently running the vacuum source to the afpr through the VSV like it is factory. Is that a good vacuum source or might it cause problems with the Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator? The reason I ask is because with no vacuum source, the fuel pressure gauge reads in the 38 psi range but once vacuum is hooked up it drops to ~21 psi. I'm guessing that drop is not normal and Indigo stated his doesn't drop that much, but I verified proper operation of the VSV as specified by the TSRM and have the vacuum lines connected properly.

7M - I was vague because I am not overly familiar with tuning efi vehicles and wasn't sure where to start other then extremely basic things. This car is a learning process for me. I know how to diagnosis problems when the vehicle is stock, but not when upgrades start getting thrown in.

I know we are all here because of our love of these headaches called Supras and with that I apologize for my lack of courtesy.

 

[3p141592654]

It is theoretically impossible to drop more than 14.7 psi, so I would suspect you have a gauge problem, (or boost at idle).

As JJ said, the only sensor that can cause this condition is the AFM. The other possibility is the injectors either because of high pressure or the injectors themselves are out of spec. You might want to go back to stock 440s and the original AFM and get that working properly, then swap in your mods.

Since injector flow is proportional to square root of pressure, it takes a lot of pressure to cause the sort of thing you are seeing.

 

[ca91mkIII]

I am guessing that the Lexus screw that 7M is talking about is the screw that is in the AFM housing correct? How the heck does one back that thing out?

 

[jdmfreak]

Which vsv are you running through to the afpr? Just run full vac off the manifold

 

[7M4EVR]

Which vsv are you running through to the afpr? Just run full vac off the manifold

I would reccomend keeping the vsv running to the fpr like stock, it does have a function. In a nutshell the VF signal essentially tells u how much the ecu has to "adjust" the air fuel mixture. Do a google search and some good reading on VF signal, lots of good info and if ur modding the car you will want to learn it. And yes the afm screw is on the housing. If yours is like mine you have to drill a small hole in it and pop the plug out before u get down to the screw, lots of info on this too. HOWEVER your too rich to just tune this out it sounds like u have an issue that needs to be found and fixed before you start messing with the afpr, lexus screw and vf. Re-read JJ and 3P's posts carefully.

 

[jdmfreak]

I Re-read JJ and 3P's posts carefully.

^^^^^this exactly

 

[ca91mkIII]

The vsv I was running is the one that is not rubber isolated and its mount is part of the metal body that surrounds the plastic. At least thats the only way I can tell the difference between them. When I am checking the TPS to make sure it is in spec, which stop do I put the feeler gauge in?

 

[ca91mkIII]

Since I am behind on the newest posts I will make another. I have done some investigating on some of my sensors and what I have found so far is the coolant temp sensor that goes to ECU is way out of spec so I am going to pick up another one of them tomorrow. I noticed when I took the throttle body off that there was tons of raw fuel on the back of the throttle blade and inside the manifold and I made sure the engine was completely warm before I started pulling things apart. This is leading me to believe that the cold start injector is not shutting off after the engine warms up. Is there any other way for raw fuel to be at the top of the intake that I am not thinking of at the moment?

Another problem I have discovered is the afm seems to be barely out of spec but out of spec none the less. I am waiting for it to warm up while I am typing and then I am going to verify it is bad.

I didn't suspect that adjusting that little screw would do much for as rich as its running currently, but I wanted to know for future reference because the stupid plug looks like one hell of a pain.

Off to my old friend Google I go.

 

[Poodles]

- Ignore the AFM screw
- Yes, temp sensor could be an issue (there's 5 of them, which one are you looking at?) Easily diagnosed, disconnect it or the cold start injector.

 

[IndigoMKII]

agree with poodles, you can disconnect the csi to make sure its not your problem.

is your csi time switch functioning?

 

[Bmettie]

When I am checking the TPS to make sure it is in spec, which stop do I put the feeler gauge in? View attachment 71226

Is that you holding that open? What you're pointing at should be touching

 

[jetjock]

As has been pointed out many times in the past (and as the schematic clearly shows) the CSI can not operate unless the key is in the start position. That doesn't mean it isn't mechanically leaking though. Again, the EFI system is unlikely to be at fault. As for "verifying" the AFM, you're likely not doing it correctly...