ProEFI Interest?

[figgie]

Knock abilities? (I'm not reading through that thread again to find it) A big part of the apeal was the knock capabilities but it was stated the cheaper version wasn't getting the full deal.

knock is not a tuning tool though. Knock detection is an afterthought in the sense for it to work, Knock has to happen. On A properly tuned car. You will not see knock, EVER. I know of folks running MoTeC for the last 10 years and never blown an engine. And they race in the Grand Am series, and Porsche cup and then drive the cars home afterwards.

 

[John Reed]

knock is not a tuning tool though. Knock detection is an afterthought in the sense for it to work, Knock has to happen. On A properly tuned car. You will not see knock, EVER. I know of folks running MoTeC for the last 10 years and never blown an engine. And they race in the Grand Am series, and Porsche cup and then drive the cars home afterwards.

I very much agree. People rest too much confidence in the "knock control" saving them from anything stupid they may come up with to do. Granted if the knock control is setup/used properly it can and does add some margin for error in the event of a bad tank of gas or other issue (which is why OEM's use them). However as you start to build engines internally with all sorts of shiny, cool aftermarket bits you completely change the mechanical noise signature of the engine.

On our race car, we had a sensor on there (came with one stock) but the signal is so completely useless with mechanical noise I do not even datalog it or look at it anymore.

Run a good tune, learn to know when your engine is happy or not, and make certain of the fuel quality you are getting, and you will be ahead of a guy that blindly relies on his knock sensor to protect him.

 

[Supracentral]

John is correct on this. Once you get up to the levels I was running in the drag car, you get constant false knock signal. Big power kind of precludes using acoustics as a tuning tool. And once you dial down the sensitivity low enough to make power, the only thing the knock sensor will sense is a rod coming through the side of the block.

 

[figgie]

.... And once you dial down the sensitivity low enough to make power, the only thing the knock sensor will sense is a rod coming through the side of the block.

hahah that is one serious KNOCK!

 

[IJ.]

Listened to my motor on the dyno using electric ears and unplugged the KS

Even at idle these things produce so much noise it's a joke.

 

[pimptrizkit]

Someone hasn't brought up the point listed on the SF post, but John said that if he Needs to, he will be able to give the end user the unlock code to view the full tuner features to make a change over the phone or whatever if thats the only option. So it doesn't sound like the V-pro where you absolutely have to bring it to a tuner if theres a major problem and you have no money to have them change a single value.

 

[joliroger4]

I am interested and everything looks good, but want sequential firing of my injectors. Is there a different version of this that has the proper number of outputs for this? Do you feel sequential fire injection really isn't worth it? Also, would it be possible to run to run a CDI like the AEM with MKIV coils and not need an ignitor like the MKIV guys? I would have no problem doing the wiring for the sequential functions myself. If not, could you offer different PnP units that could handle this? For instance I had my mind set on the E11V2 and was going to make my own patch harness, but if you offer something, I am interested. I also assume this will have no problem controlling the ISC stepper motor? Thanks, Dave.

 

[pimptrizkit]

The "cheaper" version I am talking about will be feature the following:

Batch fire peak/hold injection (no sequential available, same as stock 7M)
Direct ignition 6 channels
Wideband input with closed loop control
Inputs for various sensors, such as fuel pressure/oil pressure/oil temp/etc and warning limits/corrective action for them.
Nitrous control
Boost control
Spare outputs for fuel pumps, fans, shift lights, and other items
2 step rev limiter (multiple stages if desired)

Some of the main points the smaller unit cannot do, that the big one can:

Traction control
Sequential injection
Idle control w/OEM stepper motor
Onboard direct control of wideband sensors (no controller required)
Automatic transmission control
Variable valve timing
Drive by wire
More input/output channels

Should answer your question joliroger.

 

[John Reed]

I should be more clear. ProEFI does sequential injection, however the small unit I am thinking about using for the Mk3 only features 4 injector drivers. You can certainly step up to the larger unit (as featured in the Mk4 kits) but due to cost I just don't think a Mk3 kit built around the larger ProEFI will sell enough to put the R&D into. So my idea was to gauge interest in a kit that will fit a budget along with running your engine very well no matter the mods. Batch fire may not be ideal, but it works well enough Toyota used it on the 7M stock. If anyone is really interested in the larger ProEFI, I can certainly do one off PNP kits as needed per application.

As far as ignition, you can run any common igniter, CDI box, or similar ignition system. No need to run an igniter if you do something like an M&W or MSD.

 

[Poodles]

This way sounds stupid, but how well will the car idle on this smaller unit as it doesn't control the stock stepper motor?

 

[John Reed]

This way sounds stupid, but how well will the car idle on this smaller unit as it doesn't control the stock stepper motor?

It will idle fine when warm, may have to help it out a little bit when it is cold (or not, depending on your setup). Not a huge deal for a lot of guys out there who don't have idle control. The stepper motor is a huge output hog on systems like the Motec, when they could be put to much better use so a lot of times guys just ditch idle control all together.

The intent of this system was not an "all the bells and whistles" type of deal, it is being researched as a very rock solid system that should be within the grasp of most guys who are taking a car to the level of needing it.

 

[2yoduhJZ]

It will idle fine when warm, may have to help it out a little bit when it is cold (or not, depending on your setup). Not a huge deal for a lot of guys out there who don't have idle control. The stepper motor is a huge output hog on systems like the Motec, when they could be put to much better use so a lot of times guys just ditch idle control all together.

The intent of this system was not an "all the bells and whistles" type of deal, it is being researched as a very rock solid system that should be within the grasp of most guys who are taking a car to the level of needing it.

Is it that the ProEFI-48 wont handle the OEM IAC or it wont handle one at all? Cause if it can handle the OEM one, why not run a Honda or Ford IAC like the Stinger ecu does? Then you can have proper cold start-ups and not have to worry about helping it out. Then the ProEFi can "learn" to use the IAC at certain times. Making the ProEFi-48 street capable like the OEM ecu is and a standalone for the price should be, like the ProEFi 128.

 

[frontierguy25]

How did this work out? Did anyone get this done?

 

[figgie]

They are stil working on the user software........! month ago SP said a month. My opinion is just sit tight until it comes out. Jason is learning why game companies announce software dates of "when it gets done" for a street date.

 

[Red '88T]

My buddy has been using the proEFI on his MK3 now for 5 weeks with impressive results. I've been convinced & will be making the switch in the near future.

Jason - AZ

 

[figgie]

Hey Mr Reed (incase there is another John on the forums).

How is the Pro-EFI stepper control? Yes I know the OEM stepper is a hog but how well does it control it?

 

[2yoduhJZ]

My buddy has been using the proEFI on his MK3 now for 5 weeks with impressive results. I've been convinced & will be making the switch in the near future.

Jason - AZ

Can you tell him to post his results here? I think everyone would like to know.

Hey Mr Reed (incase there is another John on the forums).

How is the Pro-EFI stepper control? Yes I know the OEM stepper is a hog but how well does it control it?

Apparently it does it extremely well SP says, better than Motec because it does "hog" a bunch of outputs like on the Motec. Then you have the fact that the ProEFi will learn how to compensate with it. Beauty of OEM reliability.

 

[figgie]

Can you tell him to post his results here? I think everyone would like to know.



Apparently it does it extremely well SP says, better than Motec because it does "hog" a bunch of outputs like on the Motec. Then you have the fact that the ProEFi will learn how to compensate with it. Beauty of OEM reliability.

Not for anything but I had the MoTeC controlling the IAC without one single problem. Luckily i got other MoTeC goodies to compensate for the 4 outputs that get used with it but it works extrelemy good. Of course go DBW and two birds, one stone. Done.

Call me skeptical on the autolearn. It is only as strong as the coder and right now Jason's ability to bring the user software to market is not leaving a good mark with me. And I am an IT guy with a developement background.

But I heard the EXACT same spiel from every tuner when the AEM came to market and here we are with the facts known and none came to fruition. So I will hold judgement until it is out in full fledge production and not the beta phase it is currently in.

 

[2yoduhJZ]

Not for anything but I had the MoTeC controlling the IAC without one single problem. Luckily i got other MoTeC goodies to compensate for the 4 outputs that get used with it but it works extrelemy good. Of course go DBW and two birds, one stone. Done.

Call me skeptical on the autolearn. It is only as strong as the coder and right now Jason's ability to bring the user software to market is not leaving a good mark with me. And I am an IT guy with a developement background.

But I heard the EXACT same spiel from every tuner when the AEM came to market and here we are with the facts known and none came to fruition. So I will hold judgement until it is out in full fledge production and not the beta phase it is currently in.

The autolearn function has been used for years on cars, its called a OEM ecu. We see how the 2JZ OBII ecu's can re-learn and what they are put through in stock for on PT67 and stock fuel with a piggy-back! haha. Even 3S-GTE OBD1 ecu's compensate for fuel and timing when the ecu senses more boost using the narrow-band sensor to hit safe AFR's to the best of it's ability. Autolearn is just fuzzy-logic, that is all. I think that they are waiting to release software cause the last thing they need is problems like the AEM had when it was released and still does have a bunch (granted people make a lot of power on them), even the Greddy Ultimate has problems with software and running with a 1JZ ecu. While you wait for full production of one, I like real world facts, and seeing as the ProEFi already has made top-notch reliable power on a bunch of cars, thats not beta phase to me.

 

[figgie]

The autolearn function has been used for years on cars, its called a OEM ecu. We see how the 2JZ OBII ecu's can re-learn and what they are put through in stock for on PT67 and stock fuel with a piggy-back! haha. Even 3S-GTE OBD1 ecu's compensate for fuel and timing when the ecu senses more boost using the narrow-band sensor to hit safe AFR's to the best of it's ability. Autolearn is just fuzzy-logic, that is all. I think that they are waiting to release software cause the last thing they need is problems like the AEM had when it was released and still does have a bunch (granted people make a lot of power on them), even the Greddy Ultimate has problems with software and running with a 1JZ ecu. While you wait for full production of one, I like real world facts, and seeing as the ProEFi already has made top-notch reliable power on a bunch of cars, thats not beta phase to me.

I am well aware of the adaptive algorithm used by Siemens, Delphi, Bosch, NipponDenso in thier OEM ecu and as such in most GM, Ford, BMW, Daimler, VW AG etc. ND has been using "autolearn" since at least 1987 in our cars! They have to as no two engines, regardless if it is the same model and everything will have the exact same values.

To you it might not be beta. But I can assure you from any software development person/manufacture/project lifecyle, it is infact squarely within the Beta phase of it's lifecycle.

Power is only half the story. Otherwise by your narrow view of "top notch" we should put the Accel DFI, BigStuff, Tec3, Microtech, VEMS etc in that grouping since they all make big power with little time slips to prove it.

It takes a heck of a lot more than the "ultimate powah" mentality to convince me that an EMS is worth dick. I have seen great computers (regarldess if it is PC or other embeded system) run like complete garbage or do things it is not supposed to due to coding. Garbage in, Garbage out.
Granted Jason has help in the form of Matlab but not even that program is perfect. After all it was created by a group of people to try and get good repeatable code out the door. Like any other compiler, it is only as good as the instructions given to it.

Again, I have had the opportunity to correct Jason Siebel on EMS theory which coincindently, he was adamant about his stance which he was wrong on, which also happened to be contradictory to Bosch Motorsports DE and Australia, Magnetti Marelli and just about every single Race EMS manufacture out there. (SF, search for MAP and BARO, quite comical to see his response. my id is the same as here).

I hope he has people hired for support because again, the best hardware in the world does not mean shit if the support infrastructure is non-existant (ie call and leave a message is not going to cut it) that is a sure fire way to alienate customers.

The day that I can put an EMS in ANY car and it automatically adjust for everything is the day that I will be impressed. Until then it is just a set of parameters that are programmed into the computer to adjust certain variables which is no different than O2 feedback control set at ±15% authority instead of ±100% authority.