ProEFI Interest?

[Mr. Sinister]

with a proper tune itll start and run fine every time.. The problem isn't the ecu its the tune...

with a shitty tune your car with have the same problems no matter what ecu you have be it aem, autronic, this pro efi, or motec

Did you read about the ProEFI's features/capabilities over on SF in the link I posted earlier? I'm not talking about the initial tune. Sure you can tune it so the car starts perfectly in 80 degree weather. But what happens when it dips to 30 or 40? Will the car still start? The tuner will only be able to guess what's needed when it's 50 degrees colder outside. From what I've read, the ProEFI can adapt to varying conditions, just like a stock ECU.

Here's a quote form Larry @ SP:

"Everyone is so used to using the current aftermarket ecu's and their quirkiness with constant tuning. This unit is NOT like that, so you have to forget about how things worked in the past. This is a new generation of aftermarket ECU's."

What I want is to tune it once and forget about it. Like I said earlier, I don't want to drive around with a laptop in the passenger seat. Am I excited about this new ECU? You bet I am.

 

[tissimo]

the ProEFI can adapt to varying conditions, just like a stock ECU.

yup, it reads the sensors (temp, pressure, etc) and references the TUNE and acts accordingly.. just as any other setup

 

[Supracentral]

John,

I'm an experienced tuner, but I've got no saddle time with this particular system. What's the ProEFI software like to work with, compared to say, MoTeC M800, AEM or Electromotive TECH-3?

Any downloads/emulators/screenshots available?

 

[adampecush]

I am also interested in the set-it-and-forget-it (thanks Ron Popeil!) nature of this ECU. Something stock-like with the processing power of current computers is very intriguing.

 

[Mr. Sinister]

yup, it reads the sensors (temp, pressure, etc) and references the TUNE and acts accordingly.. just as any other setup

No, it's not going to be like any other setup. The key is that it has the ability to learn (again from Larry @ SP):

"The biggest advantage is that this will be a true set it and forget it unit. The reason is because of its learning capability. It will have long term and short term block learning just like a factory computer. It will constantly be making changes on its own to not only the fueling, but timing, idle settings, etc."

I am also interested in the set-it-and-forget-it (thanks Ron Popeil!) nature of this ECU. Something stock-like with the processing power of current computers is very intriguing.

Exactly, which is why I made my 'no laptop needed' statement to begin with.

 

[tissimo]

Yea, it has the ability to learn, but you will still need a good tune for it to learn of off. If its not programmed close enough at say 0*f it wont start. (though long term fuel trim MIGHT help if the inital tune is not too far off (a few percent))

Long term fuel trim is different then the aem (what I'm familair with), timing control sounds like it'd be different as well. A lot better programing then the aem to actually rely on the knock sensors to activly change the timing based off noise. The aem just has timing retard based off knock noise (if it gets over preprogramed threashold will retard, and only total timing, not just in the x/y on the map). Where as this might advanced the timing if no noise is heard and learn that way similar to a stock mkiv ecu.

short term fuel trim and idle is on aem though.

 

[Mr. Sinister]

Yea, it has the ability to learn, but you will still need a good tune for it to learn of off. If its not programmed close enough at say 0*f it wont start. (though long term fuel trim MIGHT help if the inital tune is not too far off (a few percent))

I don't know about that (from guess who):

"Lets think about the biggest problem that other computer companies have had with their systems. Basically they gave the novice end user TOO MUCH control. Lets make this simpler for the end user. If you want 1500 RPM of idle speed at 70 degrees of water temp, why should you care about the 50 different ways that the computer goes about getting you there?? This computer will do all of that for you. You will be able to change some settings but complete fuel control, idle control strategies will not be accessible to the end user. You do not need them!! Playing with those will ultimately just mess things up!! This computer will do it for you, it will learn your car!! Just like a factory computer!! If your computer loses power, all learned values will NOT be lost. If you want to run 15 psi , you enter 15 psi !! It's done! All of the tables that figure out how to get you to 15psi are done for you and you do not need to mess with them."

 

[IJ.]

^ Will win hands down if it works and is reliable!

 

[tissimo]

I don't know about that (from guess who):

"Lets think about the biggest problem that other computer companies have had with their systems. Basically they gave the novice end user TOO MUCH control. Lets make this simpler for the end user. If you want 1500 RPM of idle speed at 70 degrees of water temp, why should you care about the 50 different ways that the computer goes about getting you there?? This computer will do all of that for you. You will be able to change some settings but complete fuel control, idle control strategies will not be accessible to the end user. You do not need them!! Playing with those will ultimately just mess things up!! This computer will do it for you, it will learn your car!! Just like a factory computer!! If your computer loses power, all learned values will NOT be lost. If you want to run 15 psi , you enter 15 psi !! It's done! All of the tables that figure out how to get you to 15psi are done for you and you do not need to mess with them."

End user control.......

You will still need a certified tuner to setup the car for you initially.. you will be able to change minor things from the looks of it, but if a major mechanical part is changed you will need to get it retuned (by a certified tuner) from the sound of your posts (i havn't read the thread in a while). I know it has a VE map instead of actually fueling, so maybe thats what he means by you wont have to change fueling map.. then its just a play on words.

edit: i guess this thread is off topic now :/ my bad

 

[Mr. Sinister]

^ Will win hands down if it works and is reliable!

I know, that's why I'm so excited about the potential!

 

[comadreha]

Are you running a 7M, and if so what ignition did you have in mind for the HKS VPro? I believe AEM is the only aftermarket standalone out there that will run the multiplex ignition system.

I have a stock 7M for now. I was thinking of going to an HKS DLI II setup.

Although I don't remember his name, I corresponded with a rep from SP Engineering in the City of Industry, a couple of months ago who responded "Can do" when I asked him whether the VPro can be installed on my 1991 Supra Turbo. We never got into specifics. It was an initial "exploratory" question. He might be unaware of the potential for any multiplex ignition incompatibilities to surface when setting up a VPro unit with the stock ignition.

I will be watching very closely how this develops. Very exciting indeed!

 

[John Reed]

Mr Sinister and tissimo, you guys are both correct. The ProEFI does have some adaptive learning capability for certain aspects (OEM style) and it also has some very cool failsafe parameters that can be programmed, again like OEM. However, you cannot just throw any old map in there and let the system figure it out. You start with a good tune (just like any standalone), turn all the adaptive controls/feedback on, and let it take care of the minor day to day variences. Remember, even the OEM's do this method and they have access to anything they want on the initial tuning of the car. So if they can't get it perfect on the first stab, then there is no way us "mortals" ever will. So we both take advantage of the same technology to trim things in our absence. This is not to say a situation could arise where a tuned ProEFI would NEVER need anything further, however it should eliminate a lot of the small stuff that comes up.

 

[tissimo]

John, will all the features be unlockable for us DIY guys? or is it only certified tuners that have all the power? or is that not final yet?

 

[Mr. Sinister]

However, you cannot just throw any old map in there and let the system figure it out.

Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that it would basically auto-tune.

You start with a good tune (just like any standalone), turn all the adaptive controls/feedback on, and let it take care of the minor day to day variences.

Have you driven your car long enough to see if it can properly handle changes in temperature and altitude? I don't really care about altitude since I'm in Chicago, but if it can handle that well, it's a very good sign.

 

[figgie]

John, will all the features be unlockable for us DIY guys? or is it only certified tuners that have all the power? or is that not final yet?

from reading, only the tuners need everything. And literally they do. Why would the end user want to go and change PID values for DBW, decay values on acceleration etc. There is ZERO need for a DIY'er to be in there mucking that stuff around. Especially on stuff that your life depends on (DBW gets stuck Full open = death sentence).

 

[tissimo]

from reading, only the tuners need everything. And literally they do. Why would the end user want to go and change PID values for DBW, decay values on acceleration etc. There is ZERO need for a DIY'er to be in there mucking that stuff around. Especially on stuff that your life depends on (DBW gets stuck Full open = death sentence).

I'm not sure what that stuff you listed is. I'm only used to AEM systems (maybe labled something different then motec). I'm mainly asking if I throw cams in my car, or put a bigger turbo and exhaust on, or go stroker or get my head ported, etc will I need to go to the tuner and have him retune it? Or will I be able to tune it my self? Most of the features I never messed with in aem (ignition dwell, injector phasing, etc) and dont need to mess with. Are those the features that are only locked? Or arre the actual maps locked?

 

[John Reed]

I'm not sure what that stuff you listed is. I'm only used to AEM systems (maybe labled something different then motec). I'm mainly asking if I throw cams in my car, or put a bigger turbo and exhaust on, or go stroker or get my head ported, etc will I need to go to the tuner and have him retune it? Or will I be able to tune it my self? Most of the features I never messed with in aem (ignition dwell, injector phasing, etc) and dont need to mess with. Are those the features that are only locked? Or arre the actual maps locked?

You will have access with the customer software to do things like fuel and ignition timing, just like you are used to. It is the background setup stuff that will not be accessible, nor does it really need to be.

The customer software is still in development, so I can't comment on the final product or what it will look like.

 

[John Reed]

Here is the little guy in my car, obviously with no PNP adapter (I just wired it in):

 

[Buddafucco]

I read the SF thread. There wasn't much discussed about the cheapo version of proefi which is the one I'm assuming that your talking about here. There was a post about features that were going to be removed to make it cheaper but I didn't see a post that confirmed the actual features for that unit.

Auto trans- End user configurable? (shift points, lock up, etc...)

Batchfire injectors- Is that limited? If I were so inclined, is individual injection possible? Or is it just not end user configurable?

Knock abilities? (I'm not reading through that thread again to find it) A big part of the apeal was the knock capabilities but it was stated the cheaper version wasn't getting the full deal.

Nitrous stage control? 1 stage, 2 stage...?

2 step? Anti-lag? I didn't see anything about this.

I'm in the market for EFI control but I'm probably one of the people that you want to keep it out of my hands. I've got a couple of those frowned upon mentalities. If you want something done right then do it yourself. &. I'm a mechanic, while I may ask for advice occasionally I don't need anyone else to touch my car. There seems to be a secrecy about what the end user will actually have control of. I understand why it's being done this way and that there are certain perameters that I won't need to adjust and I'm fine with that but it would be nice to know what I can do. With no software available I'm assuming the only way I can truly find this out is to wait for someone else to install the proefi, track them down & then ask if they can plug into it so I can get the scoop.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying to do things differently on my account. I'm just trying to figure out if proefi is right for me. If I can't buy it and initially tune it myself without the intervention of a "certified" tuner then I don't think it is.

 

[John Reed]

I read the SF thread. There wasn't much discussed about the cheapo version of proefi which is the one I'm assuming that your talking about here. There was a post about features that were going to be removed to make it cheaper but I didn't see a post that confirmed the actual features for that unit.

Auto trans- End user configurable? (shift points, lock up, etc...)

Batchfire injectors- Is that limited? If I were so inclined, is individual injection possible? Or is it just not end user configurable?

Knock abilities? (I'm not reading through that thread again to find it) A big part of the apeal was the knock capabilities but it was stated the cheaper version wasn't getting the full deal.

Nitrous stage control? 1 stage, 2 stage...?

2 step? Anti-lag? I didn't see anything about this.

I'm in the market for EFI control but I'm probably one of the people that you want to keep it out of my hands. I've got a couple of those frowned upon mentalities. If you want something done right then do it yourself. &. I'm a mechanic, while I may ask for advice occasionally I don't need anyone else to touch my car. There seems to be a secrecy about what the end user will actually have control of. I understand why it's being done this way and that there are certain perameters that I won't need to adjust and I'm fine with that but it would be nice to know what I can do. With no software available I'm assuming the only way I can truly find this out is to wait for someone else to install the proefi, track them down & then ask if they can plug into it so I can get the scoop.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying to do things differently on my account. I'm just trying to figure out if proefi is right for me. If I can't buy it and initially tune it myself without the intervention of a "certified" tuner then I don't think it is.

The "cheaper" version I am talking about will be feature the following:

Batch fire peak/hold injection (no sequential available, same as stock 7M)
Direct ignition 6 channels
Wideband input with closed loop control
Inputs for various sensors, such as fuel pressure/oil pressure/oil temp/etc and warning limits/corrective action for them.
Nitrous control
Boost control
Spare outputs for fuel pumps, fans, shift lights, and other items
2 step rev limiter (multiple stages if desired)

Some of the main points the smaller unit cannot do, that the big one can:

Traction control
Sequential injection
Idle control w/OEM stepper motor
Onboard direct control of wideband sensors (no controller required)
Automatic transmission control
Variable valve timing
Drive by wire
More input/output channels


The "secrets" about what the end user will get control of aren't really secrets, they are simply part of a chapter in the book that is still being written. ProEFI and the rest of us all know the concerns over fully locked systems versus systems that are so unlocked it makes your head hurt trying to sort through everything. I am confident a nice balance will be struck, and when the software releases, then I will be happy to go over ever aspect of it to help anyone decide if this is a system that would suit them, or if something else would fit the bill better. I don't sell just one system for that reason, to allow choices within a group of products that I trust to perform as advertised once we make a selection.

My idea with the small ProEFI box was not to bring something out that will knock your socks off with out of this world capability/expandability. I have the M800 for that! I am just gauging interest in a resonably priced EMS alternative, that performs well most all the functions the average enthusiast needs an EMS to do, in a simple easy to use package.