Planning 2014 Standalone Upgrade - Question...

[Grandavi]

I want to go stand alone on my 7MGTE in 2014. So, I am doing reading/research and I want to know a couple things.

First, technically I am not a mechanic although I have rebuilt engines, I do not do my mechanical work on my 88 MK3. Everything major has and is being done by RCTS in Calgary.

Secondly, this is the current engine configuration

550 RC injectors
57 Trim CT26 (from DM)
Raptor Racing DDP (flex pipe removed, no cats on this car)
7MGTE - rebuilt head, rebuilt short block with no EGR (deleted), Wiseco pistons, polished rods and OEM bearings, shimmed oil pump, Cometic Metal HG and ARP head studs
HKS 3" catback twinpipe exhaust
Stock Intercooler
LIPP Lexus AFM upgrade (using OEM paper filter currently with OEM airbox)
HKS 3000 pipe with modified intake pipe attached, but still stock bov
AEM UEGO Wideband
AEM AFPR (DM) with 7 pipe block off, all stainless braided fuel lines
MKIV Denso fuel pump in tank
Spec 2+ Clutch
R154 (stock from tranny back to diff)
HKS EVC-S Boost controller
Greddy Turbo-timer (not really useful.. but its there)

Engine-wise almost all hoses are replaced and wiring has been gone through and cleaned up. Coax going to knock sensors. The engine bay was gone over pretty closely to prevent any tiny things from giving me headaches later on.

So, I do want to upgrade the intercooler and am considering the DM upgrade. However the Stand alone system is alot more diverse for options so I am asking "those that know" for some input.

I will not be putting it on myself, and I will not be self-tuning. I want it set up and be done with it, this car wont see the track. The big issue is I will be going from mountain driving to sea level as I plan to drive the car cross country twice in my lifetime. (its my bucketlist thingy... lol)

Money really isn't the issue although none of us like tossing it out the window just because it's costly. I am more interested in performance and flexibility. Something that can dynamically adjust for differences in temperature and air density due to altitude. I am not going for stand alone for a fast running car, I want a solid runner and to not kill my engine if I get a little stupid once in a while on the road. The car does not drive in winter.

I think thats enough info to help anyone willing to suggest. Thanks in advance for reading!

 

[SC61 MK3]

Find the best tuner in your area and buy whatever system he reccomends

 

[Grandavi]

Done that (as far as I know) and I think it will cost around 3k for the system + installation + tuning. I will get specs when I pick the car up and see what you think.

I was trying not to name any that I have been told are great because When I asked about the wideband I was told to run the AEM UEGO.. and after I bought it was told there was one that was same cost but better...

 

[Funkycheeze]

Honestly, if you aren't looking for a power increase over what the lexus/550 swap gives, and considering the small turbo you are using, I would get the AFPR tuned so the ECU's Vf value is as close to no compensation as possible (Reg knows how to do this, it is quick and easy). Should be good to go after that - even with hefty altitude changes. Just don't turn the boost up too far, as it will hit fuel cut sooner at lower altitude.

 

[Grandavi]

Well, the main reason for the stand alone is dependability and engine response. I have no plans to up the injectors and turbo for about 4 years. If the engine is still solid, I will probably try to move it close to the 500 rwhp mark (not interested in more than that because to me, the car becomes unstreetable after 500 hp when you tend to have a heavy foot). For the meantime, when I upgrade the intercooler (or anything else for that matter) I am trying to target for a max hp capacity of 700 HP so I am overbuilt. I want the car to last because I dont plan on ever selling it (its my "okay... the kids are gone" toy).

Therefore, the ultimate goal is going to be a stand alone because it monitors the engine best. The only real control I have over the engine right now (with the upgrades listed in post 1) is the fuel pressure (manual) and boost (electronic). (not playing with timing)
I was looking at the AEM stand alone, but have been told it is a single map style system, so you tune it for current conditions and if you alter the conditions it can't compensate. You would know better because I think you run with that.

I was a little concerned on running a 57 trim (or 60-1 which I decided against) in the CT26 housing because I was looking the bearings/shaft and wondered if it would severely compromise turbo life. From everything I have read, the 57 trim wont kill anything, however I can't find max PSI levels for the turbo that wont overstress either the turbo housing or shaft. That's probably been my most difficult research item. I know I can run it at 15 psi fairly safely, but 19-21 may be overstressing the little guy. So, my idea of running 14 psi as a "normal" level and 21 psi may be wrong. It may be better to do a 12 psi "normal" with a 15 psi "scramble". Can't really find anything to back up any of my thinking on turbo safe levels for the upgraded CT26's. Fairly sure 21 psi would be the max range of the 550 injectors (actually may be too much, but again, cant find confirmation for that on a 7M). (not talking about maximum efficiency, just about stress levels)

Lots of members here talk about a whole variety of builds but when it comes to BPU's its general because there is a "simple formula" setup that has worked well for a long time, but the advice on ranges has been all over the map. People stating that they run 21 psi no problem, others saying they wouldn't go over 15... Its difficult for an older guy who is still learning about what I should/shouldn't do with my car.

Am I wrong in thinking that I "should" have a stand alone for stability? (again, money isn't the issue, its more for protecting my already way over budgeted amount investment)

 

[IJ.]

What's your budget?

 

[Grandavi]

For standalone? I was thinking the Stand alone system + tune would be about 3,000. (not counting the intercooler)

 

[IndigoMKII]

As far as the standalone opening up options for upgrades, IE intake manifold, IC etc, this is true.. If you ever plan on going to a FFIM, I'd keep the stock intercooler for now then switch it out when you change intake manifolds.

The OEM paper filter and airbox are massive restrictions.. Not to mention if you kept the paper filter merely because of it's filtering abilities, Apexi covers the same thing with increased flow.

Going standalone to increase durability is kind of a two way street.. One way, if the guy knows the car and engine well, he can get the tune better than the guys from toyota did, but the other way he could make it so much worse.

The stock TCCS is pretty safe as far as reliability is concerned, it's when you upgrade a few things and leave others out. Such as getting a big turbo with lex afm without doing 550cc injectors and a bigger pump. You can drive your current setup for years if you drive it normal with some spirited driving here and there.

On a side note, it says you've deleted the EGR, does your car have the JDM ecu? If not, you could be getting part throttle detonation due to the lean condition from the TCCS thinking the EGR valve is still putting 'unburnt' fuel into the intake manifold.

 

[IndigoMKII]

For standalone? I was thinking the Stand alone system + tune would be about 3,000. (not counting the intercooler)

Not much of a budget, to be honest. What is your tuner comfortable with? AEM? ProEFI? MoTeC? Stinger?

 

[IJ.]

For standalone? I was thinking the Stand alone system + tune would be about 3,000. (not counting the intercooler)

Ok rules out any of the "better" options

 

[Grandavi]

lol, I thought the high end stand alones were about 2200'ish. EGR is deleted (it failed and most of the parts are obsolete, so after discussing with the mechanic, I left it off because its unmonitored). Wasn't aware of the ECU calculating anything for the EGR because it isn't monitored that I am aware of, so just assumed that it wouldn't be factored into any calculations for fuel feed. Detonation is a bad word ... so I need to verify I am not going to be suffering for this. First I have heard of it.

sigh.. so much to learn.

As for my tuner, they tell me they can do almost all out there and are a dealer for AEM, HKS, Greddy, MoTeC (i believe). Not sure about ProEFI, but do know they have no knowledge about Megasquirt (which I think is more of a DIY). I am willing to go as high as 5000 for it to be done properly. Face it... saving 1-2k on a 30k build is stupid if your trying to build a car that survives.. however... throwing 1-2k more onto a system that a cheaper one does just as well isnt all that wise either. (which is why I am doing the search)

 

[IJ.]

They start at high 3k then you pay to enable functions
(I had 25k in management alone)

 

[IndigoMKII]

Well, if I had the money.. MoTeC M600 is where I'd go, get all the bells and whistles with it too.

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?145214-7MGTE-egr-or-no-egr

^This thread might be a nice read for you. I thought the same thing but decided otherwise after some discussion.

If you've deleted the EGR completely from the engine and have done it properly, don't fret. Simply get a JDM 7M-GT ecu and you'll be fine. Read the thread and you'll understand why.

 

[Grandavi]

Thanks Indigo.. reading the thread now.

Ultimately (now that people have commented) this is what I think I will be running (with additional sensors that it does not have). I think if I go this route.. with installation/tuning/additional sensors to make it complete, will be 4-5k.
http://www.hkseurope.com/electronics/fcon_pro.asp

From what I see, when done properly this is a good solid "dynamic" stand alone. Looking into the MoTec M600 now as well.


oh.. and regarding the EGR... mine wasn't working for a long time (well.. not properly). It was blowing out on the back end of the motor and melting hoses for a few years. Read about the USDM ECU having an extra calculation for the EGR, but what is wierd is that it would actually compensate for something it doesn't monitor. So, if it is a "bad" thing (to the point that it gives enough detonation to take out your head gasket) as I am reading, you would think there would be a monitor on it. Not sure how hard its going to be to find a JDM ECU. Mine is a Canadian car so pretty sure its USDM, doubt they ever intermixed them in North America. Always something little on these cars isn't there...

 

[IndigoMKII]

oh.. and regarding the EGR... mine wasn't working for a long time (well.. not properly). It was blowing out on the back end of the motor and melting hoses for a few years. Read about the USDM ECU having an extra calculation for the EGR, but what is wierd is that it would actually compensate for something it doesn't monitor. So, if it is a "bad" thing (to the point that it gives enough detonation to take out your head gasket) as I am reading, you would think there would be a monitor on it. Not sure how hard its going to be to find a JDM ECU. Mine is a Canadian car so pretty sure its USDM, doubt they ever intermixed them in North America. Always something little on these cars isn't there...

Of course lol. If there wasn't something little always there, you'd see these cars everywhere.

I also spend most of my time reading. I've even gone as far as downloading and printing the fuel delivery systems for these cars just to keep them on hand.

I figure, the more I know about the car and engine, the more I'll know to help get myself into more trouble. Every now and then I'll go to tackle a problem and shove myself in head first, only to find I'm chasing my tail.

I have finally taken the grasp on using the engine as a whole. If you've got all of the engine working better and breathing better but lacked on the maintenance on a few things, sure enough it'll kick you in the ass.

 

[Flateric]

If you are referring to Reg Reimer, than you simply cannot go wrong there. Seriously worth every little penny spent. He was the exclusive hands on guy for the majority of my 7M, HKS life and after the fcon/vpc/evc from Reg I never once had to tweak, mess with or fiddle with it ever again. It started like stock, worked like stock and performed like a rocket ship. Never once failed to "just work".

I suspect Reg has updated his toolchest now and it would only be even better.

Tell him Gord says hello BTW!

 

[Grandavi]

well, the engine bottom end is completely rebuilt, the head was rebuilt and the block lapped properly. ARP head studs should solve any headgasket issues with the Cometic Metal Headgasket. Every hose that looked even a little worn got replaced (timing belt and tensioner too) and all the wiring was gone through and the loom rewrapped.. so the only thing old under the hood is the engine externals (pumps, etc..). Everything was looked at really closely to alleviate any tiny problems that normally come up. However, RCTS is of the opinion that I will not have any issues without the EGR valve. I think they have rebuilt over 70 7M's there and they do know their stuff. Reg Reimer was the one that kinda wrote the book on a lot of the BPU's and proper engine build techniques. (SOGI)

The EGR valve worries me a little, but I will still be running without simply because in the end, its a lot of work and hunting for what I would consider proper parts to replace something that is obsolete OEM parts. (I tried to purchase new, but they didn't have)
I'm not overly concerned because I see where the detonation could occur (basically at mid throttle by the looks of it). I will watch the wideband and see what pops up and if it looks even a little scary, I will see about rectifying the issue. (either a JDM ECU or just let it sit until I go stand alone)

As for Flateric, Reg seems to have gone more into depth with merging superchargers and turbos as well as different stand alone tuner systems (lots of troubleshooting) from what I could see. Don't see him much at the shop when I go down there, but its a very responsive shop since Chris took over from Jimmy. No wait time on responses and I get phoned lots with little questions rather than them assuming what they are doing is what I want. Very happy with spending my money there and after seeing all the stuff I would have overlooked completely, totally overjoyed at the concept of having a trouble free system.

The only 2 things that conflict with the forum consensus and their advice is: 1. the fuel pump (I was told to short out the block that controls the voltage to give the fuel pump full voltage constantly.. if I understood the advice. They advise not to) and 2. The EGR (they have done EGR deletes before on the engines and never had an issue, but the forum consensus based on jdubs findings conflict with that thought). I have yet to see a RTCS built engine fail or to hear of any complaint except for $$. Reg has taken a personal interest in my car, too... so that bodes well for me.

It was cool at their Christmas party because my car got a lot of attention sitting in the middle of the shop.. lol.

Back to the topic, I like the MoTec M600, but leaning towards the HKS FconVpro simply because I believe Reg knows it best. Thinking in the end, this is going to be about 5,000 but very smart to do overall. Plus it seems the MoTeC is built for newer cars with more modern features. Overall, just from what I can see from quick reads, the HKS seems better geared to the 7M after all the add-on sensors are setup properly. Plus it looks like the MoTeC is about 5000+ all-in before installation and tuning. For a simple street MK3, I think the HKS is already overkill, the MoTeC looks like extreme overkill... lol. Probably would want it if I was reaching above 700 rwhp

 

[Flateric]

Check your PM's. Reg's work is very well known worldwide, he will not steer you wrong.

 

[SC61 MK3]

I never had any issues bypassing the fuel pump relay and resister or the egr but anyways...

I think before you drop 5k on the ecu you should get an upgraded intercooler/piping and get rid of the factory air box. Than turn up the boost and really see what your setup can do. I don't see the point of an ridiculously expensive ecu on such a basic setup

 

[Grandavi]

The cost is supposed to be spread out over 10 years. Im on year 5. The 57 Trim is a stepping stone to the final, but I did more engine than I intended because the base was rebuilt 30,000 km ago but was done improperly so I had to replace the shortblock. My orginal intention was to go 2jz with a larger single turbo. That has changed because now I have a fresh 7M. Because of the stepped up budget (10k more than I expected to spend), I am where I am, however, in the end, I want to upgrade to a larger turbo and injectors (if I find that the 57 trim just doesnt cut it. Intercooler and piping has to wait 1-2 years because the interior is my primary concern when I get the car back. The standalone system will happen with the intercooler upgrade. As I said before, I want to build for 700 HP, but dont want to run it at higher than 500 rwhp. 450 would suit me just fine.

The stand alone is to monitor the engine and ensure I dont kill it by accident. Longevity is more key to me than speed is. I dont want to join the ranks of the "this is my 3rd engine install" because something went amiss while doing a pull. Really.. I dont.. lol.