Oil on top of pistons; All plugs fouled with oil; Smoke out of exhaust - RESOLVED

[Jonnymkiii]

So I have an 87 Turbo; see sig for mods. Anyhoo, I have several symptoms to a problem and I need some help with the root cause. She starts ok, but the idle quickly begins to hesitate and the car will eventually die; giving it a little throttle will keep it alive, but it sounds pretty rough. While running, white smoke blows out the exhaust, which indicates burnt oil; it blows out a significant amount.

I replaced the plugs the other day and after a several minutes of running, all the plugs were wet with what appeared to be oil (The cylinder side); after it dries the head of the plug is completely carbon black. I also noticed what appeared to be oil on top of all the pistons I checked. The car is also running rich; I am not sure if this is a symptom of the problem or part of the problem. Additionally, I checked the inside of the intercooler and there was only a small residue of oil on the bottom-inside chamber; I believe this to be normal.

If oil was only evident on a couple plugs and pistons I'd point to pistons rings, but it's all 6. I do suppose this is definitely plausible. Could it be the valve seals? She used to only smoke when you started it up, which was probably the seals, but it's definitely a lot worse now. If it were the seal in the turbo I'd think I'd have more oil in the intercooler, so I don't think it's that, but I could be mistakened.

My next step will be a compression test; but if that comes back ok, then I will be at a loss. Any suggestions or ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


Jonny

 

[supraman508]

I had the same problem due to my valve covers weren't on tight enuff and oil was seeping down into the sparkplug chambers.also u might need to replace your black gasket that lays between your valve covers.

 

[Jonnymkiii]

Thanks for the reply 508!

I looked into that, but he spark plug valley is actually clean of oil. Also, when I changed out the plugs recently, I made sure there was no oil in the valley. Then after the car ran for several minutes, I checked theplugs and the heads (cylinder side) were black and wet; there was no oil in the valley or other side of the plug. If it were the valve covers, I'd think I'd see at least some oil in the valley, but I'm not. Whatever oil is in the cylinder isn't buring off because the white smoke is continuous and the car will eventually stall out and die.

Jonny

 

[TomFraser]

white smoke usually indicates coolant, black = rich, or oil, bluish = oil... what does it smell like? Sweet?

Hate to say it but coolant and oil in cylinders may equal head gasket.

See if oil is in the intake (throttle body, anything after turbo)

Coolant in oil (check oil cap for "milkshake")?

Compression test it...

 

[Jonnymkiii]

white smoke usually indicates coolant, black = rich, or oil, bluish = oil... what does it smell like? Sweet?

Hate to say it but coolant and oil in cylinders may equal head gasket.

See if oil is in the intake (throttle body, anything after turbo)

Coolant in oil (check oil cap for "milkshake")?

Compression test it...

Looking at the intake pipe above the block as well as the TB; there is no wet residue or evidence of oil; only a thin layer of carbon in areas.

There is a significant more amount of oil being caught in the oil catcher; 1.5 - 2 shot glasses worth. When it ran well, I'd only get a little amount.

I put some paper under the exhaust and it when I started it briefly, it caught lots of little specs of black liquid; not sure if it's oil or carbon filled coolant. The exhaust smells rich. It is running rich, but I am not sure if this is a symptom of the root cause or part of the problem.

I checked the dipstick as well as the oil through the cap and can't see any hints of anything in there that isn't oil, ie coolant. I will pull the cam covers tomorrow to have a closer look at things.


I performed a compression test earlier; here is what I recorded:

#1 140
#2 140
#3 140
#4 140
#5 143
#6 144

* Car will not run to ideal op temp, so I had to do the test cold.

* It took about 4-6 cranks to get the pressure to it's peak point. Compression held for all cylinders.

* Expletives! I just realized I need to perform the test with the throttle held open :cry:

 

[Jonnymkiii]

I re-ran the compression test with the throttle open, and the results were pretty close to the original. I believe I'm well within specification and each cylinder has a tolerable delta, so I don't think the rings are the issue.

I set up some better lighting and got a better angle to look inside inside the spark plug holes and I can now see some oil inside of the #3 and #4 spark plug holes, but none of the others. I can buy into oil from the cam cover leaking into a few spark plug holes, but that doesn't necessarily explain why all of my plugs are fouling black before the car can even fully warms up; that still has me perplexed.

The other symptoms are in how the car idles and runs. It will idle pretty rough and will stall out pretty quick unless you give it some gas and it sputters when you increase the throttle.

Another thing I did today was I pulled the #1 cam cover and all the oil puddled inside is consistent; there are no signs of antifreeze or any other liquid in the oil. I haven't seen any evidence of a head gasket leak yet. By the by, this head gasket has about 15k miles on it.


NEXT STEP: Replace cam cover seals; however, I don't think this is the root of my problems.

If anyone has any ideas as to what the problem might be or other things to check while I have the upper engine disassemble, please let me know. Thank you!


Jonny

 

[Jonnymkiii]

I think I found a problem. I mentioned recently changing the plugs; my goal was to put in fresh plugs and see how they looked after running a little bit. I bought a bosh plug I normally do not get, just because it was a decent plug and it was cheap. Well, I was given a plug for a Celica; which could account for the rough idle and running rich; assuming I wasn't getting enough spark. I'll make sure I have the right plugs next time!

I just ordered the the cam cover gaskets; should I use FIPG to help seal them, or nothing at all?


Jonny

 

[Jonnymkiii]

Latest Update: I replaced the spark plugs and the valve cover gaskets as well. I put everything back together and checked all vacuum lines and intercooler piping just to make sure there were no holes in the system anywhere. It starts and still is blowing a lot of white smoke, which I think is because it runs rich and will will idle extremely rough and will eventually die. I also verified that each coil was producing spark, so I don't think there are any "dead" plugs,

I have noticed something interesting I need to pass along. When the car idles (Still putting out white smoke however), when you disengage the key the car shuts off as normal. The interesting part is, when the car is idling very rough and can not maintain idle without stalling out, if you disengage the key from ignition, and remove it for that matter, the car continues to run; you have to pull the battery cable to kill it.

I first noticed/caused the problem late last fall. I was doing some voltage troubleshooting and accidentally left the key in the ING position over night; the battery was dead the next day. Since then, winter arrived and I didn't pull the cover off of it until a couple weeks ago (It is always in a garage).

Is it possible the ECU was damaged when I left the key in ING?


Jonny

 

[CT26smoker]

Oiling the plugs during idle is typicly a sign of worn out valve stem seals.
Were new ones installed when you did the head?
If so, did you use name brand valve seals, or some POS chinese seals ?
Did you install them yourself, or did you have some 'shop' install them?

I have seen both cheap valve seals that didn't seal, and good seals, not installed correctly come off the stems, and free float, not doing any sealing.

Also if the crankcase vents, vent tube, and port in the throttle body are plugged, crankcase presure will push oil by the valve stem seals (and just about everywhere else).
Seen some 7Ms with that circuit completely plugged.

 

[Jonnymkiii]

A shop did the build and they replaced the valve stem seals, but I don't know the brand. They are a well trusted shop, so I don't have any doubt they did what they said they did; however, if they are causing oil to get on the spark plugs, I wouldn't be surprised. Wouldn't I see black smoke if the valve stems are leaking? At the moment it puts out white smoke in a contentious flow and it smells rich.

I got it to idle ok and the timing checks out ok and when it idles well, the vacuum holds around 15psi. I also was able get the idle a/f ratio to ~14.7 and it still is smoking white. This project is starting to feel like an odyssey :nono:


Jonny

 

[CT26smoker]

Black smoke if normally when over rich.
Does it go away when your on the throttle ?
If so, I still think valve seals, but the fuel smell (rich) is throwing me.
Or did you mean something else besides fuel when you said smells rich ?
A sweat small is coolant.

And did you check the crankcase vents, coming out of the valve covers, going to the throttle?

 

[simon]

One or more stuck injector?

 

[Jonnymkiii]

I have not really tested to see what the smoke looks like under throttle recently I can try that this evening. When I say it smells rich, it stings the nostrils and it appears to be a heavy smoke; I do not think it's coolant and I've not seen any liquid in the oil. It could be oil burning; I'm just not familiar enough with the smell of gas or oil burning... it doens't smell like a 2-stroke engine's exhause though. I would love for this to be caused by the valve seals and perhaps that is where I need to focus my efforts. Is there a way to verify that the valve seals are causing the smoking? Is the only way to check the plugs and if they are covered in oil, that is most liley the cause?

I checked the valve vents and they appear to be clear and free; I have an oil catched in-line from the valve cover and that path is clear. I have not verified the vent attached sirectly below the oil cap, but I am replacing that line soon and will verify then.

Simon,
That is an interesting idea; if an injector is stuck open, can I verify that by using a stethiscope to listen to the injector pulse? I imagine the sound would be quite different for an injector stuck open.


Thanks for the posts guys; I have hit a wall with this and could use any help I can get!


PS - I checked my codes again and the engine checked out OK.



Jonny

 

[OfnaRcR4]

If you're getting 14.7 at idle than I don't think it would be a stuck injector. Plus this wouldn't explain the oil you're finding everywhere. I'm saying valve seals. Also.. blue smoke (burning oil) is very easy to confuse with white smoke (coolant). Is your oil level going down at all? Idk if you are running it long enough to tell a difference but its worth a check. Either way i'd say you're burning oil somewhere and by the info given i'd blame the valve seals.

 

[simon]

Simon,
That is an interesting idea; if an injector is stuck open, can I verify that by using a stethiscope to listen to the injector pulse? I imagine the sound would be quite different for an injector stuck open.Jonny

I'm not sure, but I would guess. Find out it was the problem on my car by pulling all the spark plugs and finding a pool on #1 piston. Plug was also wet. Soaked some of it with a towel and set it on fire. 33 km after a fresh rebuilt and i Had those injector on a bench! It only takes a small piece of dirt to clog or prevent it to seal. Can't be clean enough I guess. Oil change was smelling like fuel. Good luck!

Look on you tube, you can jerry rig something at home to test injectors yourself. The easyest I saw is a 5 cc serynge connected to a carb cleaner spay bomb to make a thight fit on the injector supply port and triggering it with a battery and a switch. I will post if I can find it again.



There you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFJlTfHyrUk

 

[Jonnymkiii]

Thanks for the link simon!

I found something that appears to have helped stabilize the idle; the vacuum nipple on my FPR was pretty loose and most likely resulting in a vacuum leak. I let it idle to normal operating temperature and most of the smoke was gone, although some was trickling out. This exhaust smoke smelt different; more like oil this time.

I drove it down the street about 1/4 mile and it starting smoking real bad and eventually starting spitting and sputtering until it decided it didn't want to run any more... luckily I got it back home in time. IT refuses to crank now, but I'll bet it'll start up just find tomorrow.

I'll do some searching on replacing valve seals; I called a shop today and they wanted $900 w/o taking the head off.. wtf? Is that even close to right? Either way, I will look into doing it myself. In the meantime, I start her up again tomorrow and run some more diagnostics. Thanks for y'alls help!


Jonny

 

[Jonnymkiii]

The other day the car ran somewhat normal for a bit, which was a far cry from what I'm used to. Since then, the 2-3 times I've tried to start it, it idles very rough, just like before. When it ran well, it held vacuum at 15-16 psi. I could rev it up and it would always hold that. When it runs really rough, the vacuum will drop to ~10 psi and will eventually drop down until it dies. Sure sounds like a vacuum leak, but I've looked it over 20 times and can't find anything; moreover, why did it hold steady the other day? I'm not saying its not a leak, but I have not been able to find anything.

What bothers me is what I just saw... I think I might have blow by :cry:

I checked air coming out of the valve cover vents and I saw smoke; I actually saw it the other day when it ran well, but I was so excited it was running that I hoped it was something else. I then pulled out the dipstick and saw smoke coming out of there as well.

I would have thought if I had a bad ring that the compression test would have uncovered that, but all the cylinders checked out ok; see test results earlier in the thread.

Any ideas or something else I can do to verify if the rings are bad or not. Could that possibly be caused by a backed up pcv system?


Jonny

 

[Jonnymkiii]

Does this sound familiar to anyone? Do I just need to throw in the towel and accept the engine is dead?

 

[89supracrazy]

I have a similar issue also. It is white smoke and it does it when I bleep the throttle out of the exhaust. Today I took my o2 sensor out and I noticed it was black. I just put this new o2 sensor in about 2 weeks ago. I left the o2 sensor out and started my car and the smoke quit. I put the o2 sensor back in and it started smoking bad again when I bleep the throttle. I am just wondering if a restricted exhaust would cause the issue that we are having. I did notice my turn down elbow was bent in some. Try taking your o2 sensor out and see if your car still smokes.

 

[Jonnymkiii]

I decided to tear down the intake side of the motor to replace the gaskets and get a closer look at the vacuum hoses and other plumbing.

I got the manifold off and noticed noticeable oily residue (wet) in the #1 and #3 runners of the plenum, but none of the others. I find no evidence of oily residue in the intake manifold, intake pipe or innercooler. I am wondering if my valve cover was leaking enough to seep through the plenum gasket, which would explain the oil only being in #1 and #3 and also the vacuum issues I've seen... maybe I'm grabbing at straws here, but we'll find out soon enough ;-)


Jonny