How was your oil level? Was it good, or low? Pull your bottom intercooler hose off at the intercooler. The one that comes from the turbo to the intercooler. Check to see if there's oil in there.
Oil on top of pistons; All plugs fouled with oil; Smoke out of exhaust - RESOLVED
- Thread starter Jonnymkiii
- Start date
If you actually get in to pulling the head off and the valves out you'll have a good look at the problem and a good opportunity to get your hands on all the vaccum accessories etc. A shop replaces valve stem seals for you recently I'm confident there's no reason to do it again, but once the head is off you'll reall get an idea of whats going on in there
Man that sucks. You mentioned you thought you busted your ignition that day because the car won't shut down when it was struggling to idle? That just sounds like the ignition wasn't sending a signal to shut it off because it was struggling so hard.
Your compression seems a little low actually. 7M-GTE's are usually around 180.
Oil prevents it from cranking till it sits overnight? ouch. I also thought you meant when you looked at the plugs they were covered with oil, that the valley was filled with oil. I drove my car with a leaky valve cover gasket for such a long time, there were puddles 2" deep over the plugs. Especially back at #6. your seals were just done thou, no? I was thinking a bad AFM ....14.7 is nice. but your plugs are black, perhaps you did blow out your rings?
Your compression seems a little low actually. 7M-GTE's are usually around 180.
Oil prevents it from cranking till it sits overnight? ouch. I also thought you meant when you looked at the plugs they were covered with oil, that the valley was filled with oil. I drove my car with a leaky valve cover gasket for such a long time, there were puddles 2" deep over the plugs. Especially back at #6. your seals were just done thou, no? I was thinking a bad AFM ....14.7 is nice. but your plugs are black, perhaps you did blow out your rings?
Wow if you can get enough oil in your cyls to hydro lock the motor then I dont think rings would be the issue because bad rings would let the oil blow back into the crank case. Now 140 does seem low for the compression, but I cant remember what the specs for the engine are, I know I get 180 from my na and 165 from my turbo engine. I would suspect valve seals, but wait there should not be enough oil around the valve seal to hydro lock the motor, so I am wondering if you dont have some blocked oil return galleys in the engine. The valve seals are not very easy to replace in a way, in another way they are. I had to do mine twice in a few weeks due to having gotten bad cometic seals. The felpros I put in are doing great. Btw white smoke is normally coolant, but if you burn enough oil it burns white, burning some oil is bluish gray, but burning massive amounts will make it white, trust me I know what very bad valve seals smoke like, and what its like to blow the turbo seals.
First off to test to see if the oil returns are clogged, take the valve covers off and pour oil onto the cam area, if it puddles and lot and does not drain off down the holes that could be your problem.
To do the valve seals in the car you need a good air compressor and the compression tester fitting to the plug hole. install the tester and hook compressed air to the hose from it. Obviously the cams have to be out for this, and all valves will be closed. I use 120psi on the cyls to hold them closed, but was fine down to 60psi when my compressor failed. You will need a valve spring compressor that bolts from the top of the head, it will bolt into the cam cover bolt holes, and you use the arm to press the valve spring down. You will need a good high power magnet pen and some lithium grease.
Press the valve spring down and use the magnet to remove the keepers, well after removing the lifter buckets that is. Then pull the spring out and you can see the seal. You will have to get or make a valve stem seal puller, I just made my own from sheet steel. Just two hooks of even length one on each side. Be careful not to scratch the valve itself. Put the valve "condom" (seal protector) on the valve before installing the new seal then push it down until it clicks, have to use an installer or a right size socket for this. Just dont push too hard on the valve seals, and make sure the piston on the cyl you are working on is up so if you do drop a valve it will hit the piston and not fall into the engine.
After getting all the stuff back in ie springs ect, use the spring compressor to push the spring down. Add a good amount of silicon grease or other thick grease to the keepers, this will let them " hold on to the valve as you try to install them in place. Its a lot of work, and a pita if you release the spring with the keeper not seated, they go flying and you probably wont find them, or they can drop down the oil returns so cover them with rags or whatever.
Just so you know I am a master tech and have done most any job you can imagine and have worked on a lot of 7ms, it takes me 1.2hr to pull a motor and trans from one, but it took me 7 hours to replace the valve seals. While rebuilding the engine in my car I asked the machine show what they would charge me to replace the valve seals in my head while doing the machine work and was told $600 to do the seals, and that was with the head off the car and clean so yea the $800 sounds right. If you are not mechanically inclined I would have a shop do it.
Hope that helps. Btw, if you are burning a lot of oil you might not be getting a good reading from the o2 or wideband because it will be coated and not getting a good air reading.
First off to test to see if the oil returns are clogged, take the valve covers off and pour oil onto the cam area, if it puddles and lot and does not drain off down the holes that could be your problem.
To do the valve seals in the car you need a good air compressor and the compression tester fitting to the plug hole. install the tester and hook compressed air to the hose from it. Obviously the cams have to be out for this, and all valves will be closed. I use 120psi on the cyls to hold them closed, but was fine down to 60psi when my compressor failed. You will need a valve spring compressor that bolts from the top of the head, it will bolt into the cam cover bolt holes, and you use the arm to press the valve spring down. You will need a good high power magnet pen and some lithium grease.
Press the valve spring down and use the magnet to remove the keepers, well after removing the lifter buckets that is. Then pull the spring out and you can see the seal. You will have to get or make a valve stem seal puller, I just made my own from sheet steel. Just two hooks of even length one on each side. Be careful not to scratch the valve itself. Put the valve "condom" (seal protector) on the valve before installing the new seal then push it down until it clicks, have to use an installer or a right size socket for this. Just dont push too hard on the valve seals, and make sure the piston on the cyl you are working on is up so if you do drop a valve it will hit the piston and not fall into the engine.
After getting all the stuff back in ie springs ect, use the spring compressor to push the spring down. Add a good amount of silicon grease or other thick grease to the keepers, this will let them " hold on to the valve as you try to install them in place. Its a lot of work, and a pita if you release the spring with the keeper not seated, they go flying and you probably wont find them, or they can drop down the oil returns so cover them with rags or whatever.
Just so you know I am a master tech and have done most any job you can imagine and have worked on a lot of 7ms, it takes me 1.2hr to pull a motor and trans from one, but it took me 7 hours to replace the valve seals. While rebuilding the engine in my car I asked the machine show what they would charge me to replace the valve seals in my head while doing the machine work and was told $600 to do the seals, and that was with the head off the car and clean so yea the $800 sounds right. If you are not mechanically inclined I would have a shop do it.
Hope that helps. Btw, if you are burning a lot of oil you might not be getting a good reading from the o2 or wideband because it will be coated and not getting a good air reading.
Sorry for the delay in my update; sometimes life turns into a goat rodeo ;-)
Thank you for the feedback and Meta that was a sweet write up, thank you! I am not ready for that yet, but that will be a big help when I am.
I feel confident I can change the valve seals, but I'm not going to do that just yet; I want to target one area at a time, then retest.
Here is what I've found from tearing down the intake side of the engine.
- As mentioned, I saw oil in a couple of the plenum runners but I didn't feel any residue in the head when I removed the plenum; could the oil leak from the valve covers seep through the plenum gasket into the plenum? I checked the intake prior to the TB as well as the innercooler and I didn't see any oil pooling up, so I am not sure what's going on there.
- The EGR path inside the intake manifold was clogged with carbon build up; the cold start injector was coated with carbon build up as well. I cleaned the internals, so we'll see if that helps.
- When bolting the plenum back on the head, I noticed the threads for top EGR valve stripped; just the first few threads. Turns out the bolt is a bit too short. I am not sure if I did this or if it previously existed. If it was a pre-existing condition, the EGR valve probably would have had a leak. That could be something there too.
Everything else looked good. For good measure I am going to replace all the vacuum hoses.
This weekend I'll get everything put back together; I'll change the oil and start her up to see if anything I did helped.
If not, then its time to maybe even pull the head, which I really really really don't want to do. I've got my fingers crossed
Thank you for the feedback and Meta that was a sweet write up, thank you! I am not ready for that yet, but that will be a big help when I am.
I feel confident I can change the valve seals, but I'm not going to do that just yet; I want to target one area at a time, then retest.
Here is what I've found from tearing down the intake side of the engine.
- As mentioned, I saw oil in a couple of the plenum runners but I didn't feel any residue in the head when I removed the plenum; could the oil leak from the valve covers seep through the plenum gasket into the plenum? I checked the intake prior to the TB as well as the innercooler and I didn't see any oil pooling up, so I am not sure what's going on there.
- The EGR path inside the intake manifold was clogged with carbon build up; the cold start injector was coated with carbon build up as well. I cleaned the internals, so we'll see if that helps.
- When bolting the plenum back on the head, I noticed the threads for top EGR valve stripped; just the first few threads. Turns out the bolt is a bit too short. I am not sure if I did this or if it previously existed. If it was a pre-existing condition, the EGR valve probably would have had a leak. That could be something there too.
Everything else looked good. For good measure I am going to replace all the vacuum hoses.
This weekend I'll get everything put back together; I'll change the oil and start her up to see if anything I did helped.
If not, then its time to maybe even pull the head, which I really really really don't want to do. I've got my fingers crossed
Well good luck, as I said I had the worst of luck with bad valve stem seals then blew the turbo afterwards.
Oil will make its way from the valve covers to the intake that is the reason people put oil catch tanks on their cars, not a lot but will make its way to the intake, Easy enough and cheep. http://store.driftmotion.com/static/i-oilcatchcan.php
A way to tell if the valve seals are leaking is when the car is cold start it and let it idle for a min or so, let it sit for half an hour or so and repeat, do this 3 or 4 times, if the valve seals are leaking this will let the oil leak down the stems and into the combustion chamber and go into the exhaust but not get the exhaust hot enough to fry all the oil from inside the mani. Take the turbo off the mani and look inside to see if there is oil in the exhaust manifold. If there is oil there I would suspect bad valve stem seals. I am about to have to remove all the springs and valves from a spare head I am selling so I will try to get some pics for reference so you get the idea how its done and do a writeup on it. Its not fun or easy but it will cost a fortune for a shop to do it. Good luck, hopefully I will have the write up ready before you start. Should be trying to do it Sunday.
Oil will make its way from the valve covers to the intake that is the reason people put oil catch tanks on their cars, not a lot but will make its way to the intake, Easy enough and cheep. http://store.driftmotion.com/static/i-oilcatchcan.php
A way to tell if the valve seals are leaking is when the car is cold start it and let it idle for a min or so, let it sit for half an hour or so and repeat, do this 3 or 4 times, if the valve seals are leaking this will let the oil leak down the stems and into the combustion chamber and go into the exhaust but not get the exhaust hot enough to fry all the oil from inside the mani. Take the turbo off the mani and look inside to see if there is oil in the exhaust manifold. If there is oil there I would suspect bad valve stem seals. I am about to have to remove all the springs and valves from a spare head I am selling so I will try to get some pics for reference so you get the idea how its done and do a writeup on it. Its not fun or easy but it will cost a fortune for a shop to do it. Good luck, hopefully I will have the write up ready before you start. Should be trying to do it Sunday.
I finally got everything put back together and also changed the oil for good measure. It started up and seemed to be running well with a couple exceptions. The ISCV doesn't appear to be closing now; the idle didn't drop below 1500 and I didn'[t hear the clicks when I cut ignition. It was late when I got her started last night, so I havn't performed problem determination on it yet.
It smoked a bit at start-up, but I didn't notice any smoke after it ran for a couple minutes; so I have that going for me, which is nice.
The only other thing I noticed is the taillights and passnger side rear side marker lights are out; I'm not overly concerned with that and I mention it only because this is the kind of luck I've had with this car over the years, if its not one thing its another. Only I could work on the intake and break the tail light, lol ;-)
I'll work on it more tonight hopefully and I'll see what I find out with the ISCV; I am eager to see how it runs at normal idle, then take her out for a spin to see how she runs on the road. I think/hope I'm getting close!
Jonny
It smoked a bit at start-up, but I didn't notice any smoke after it ran for a couple minutes; so I have that going for me, which is nice.
The only other thing I noticed is the taillights and passnger side rear side marker lights are out; I'm not overly concerned with that and I mention it only because this is the kind of luck I've had with this car over the years, if its not one thing its another. Only I could work on the intake and break the tail light, lol ;-)
I'll work on it more tonight hopefully and I'll see what I find out with the ISCV; I am eager to see how it runs at normal idle, then take her out for a spin to see how she runs on the road. I think/hope I'm getting close!
Jonny
You said it was idling at 1500 rpms. Did you forget to plug up your tps sensor. Mine acts like that when I unplug mine. If I unplug my iscv it surges real bad.
Yesterday was a good day; I think all the issues are fixed and she is running really well right now!
So the problem with the idle and what I thought was the ISCV was actually user error; somebody, I'm not naming names to protect the innocent, but somebody installed the TB gasket wrong so there was a vacuum leak ;-) That was a quick fix and once I restarted her, she idled very well with no smoke after a minute. There is still smoke at start up which I am sure are the valve seals, but that's not really causing a functional issue that I can see. After it warmed up, I took her down the street and was able to ease into boot; it ran and spooled up very nicely
Root Cause Analysis:
The oil on the plugs was being caused by leaking valve covers and that was fixed by installing new gaskets as well as replacing the stock valve cover scews.
I think the smoking and the rough idle were symptoms to the EGR valve not being sealed properly. The first few threads in the head for the top EGR valve wer stipped. After looking at it closer, the top bolt of the EGR was only able to get a few threads in; the screw was a tab too short. I suspect that the boost eventually put enough pressure on the bolt that it stripped out of the head. As time passed, it just got continously worse and I think this caused a leak that lead to the rough idles which contributed to the smoke. That's just my theory, I could be wrong.
Either way, she is purring like a cat now which makes me very happy given the length of time I've been troubleshooting this.
Thank you to everyone who offered advise and a second set of eyes. I think we can call this one fixed - yay!
So the problem with the idle and what I thought was the ISCV was actually user error; somebody, I'm not naming names to protect the innocent, but somebody installed the TB gasket wrong so there was a vacuum leak ;-) That was a quick fix and once I restarted her, she idled very well with no smoke after a minute. There is still smoke at start up which I am sure are the valve seals, but that's not really causing a functional issue that I can see. After it warmed up, I took her down the street and was able to ease into boot; it ran and spooled up very nicely
Root Cause Analysis:
The oil on the plugs was being caused by leaking valve covers and that was fixed by installing new gaskets as well as replacing the stock valve cover scews.
I think the smoking and the rough idle were symptoms to the EGR valve not being sealed properly. The first few threads in the head for the top EGR valve wer stipped. After looking at it closer, the top bolt of the EGR was only able to get a few threads in; the screw was a tab too short. I suspect that the boost eventually put enough pressure on the bolt that it stripped out of the head. As time passed, it just got continously worse and I think this caused a leak that lead to the rough idles which contributed to the smoke. That's just my theory, I could be wrong.
Either way, she is purring like a cat now which makes me very happy given the length of time I've been troubleshooting this.
Thank you to everyone who offered advise and a second set of eyes. I think we can call this one fixed - yay!
When you get the manifold off, see if the internal EGR channel is clogged with carbon deposits; mine was 100% restricted when I took mine off. Good luck!
Jonny
Jonny