oil is shooting up out of the dip stick tube

[suprafanatic]

I read that whole thread you posted about the catch can... So many different things were said im still unsure as to how the PCV system should be routed.. Could you please give me a quick description of how the hoses should be ran? Or should i just take the can out and route it back like the stock setup?

 

[jdub]

Diagram at post #131:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43167&page=14

Discussion follows...you will see it pretty much mirrors what I said earlier here. To be honest, a catch can is not worth the time and effort IMO. But if you want to run one, that post and my comments afterward will tell you the correct routing.

BTW - it is a very common notion that the accordion hose provides sufficient vacuum to power the PCV system. I hope I was able to dispel that for you

 

[IJ.]

My own personal experience on this "issue"

I built an NA/t way back that on low boost on the dyno did this exact thing to the point of puking Oil onto the WG and smoking like a bitch!

I had the Cam covers T'd then a line to the pipe between the Filter and Turbo.

The "temp fix" I performed was to increase fittings and line to -10 and it behaved itself until I lost an injector and burnt a piston, on tear down I found that I'd over torqued the Cam Tensioner and pulled #1 cylinder wall enough to allow massive blowby.

Fast forward to a new block/build at much higher boost pressure and the "issue" returns even with -10 lines and a catch can added in, do comp and leakdown tests and they're fine, turns out there's a point on part throttle lift offs into corners that the BoV's can't open that combines to overwhelm the -10 lines to the filter with crankcase pressure.

I add in a post TB PCV circuit copying Toyota's original design add in a valve and it works perfectly.

My point in all this is for the dipstick to pop out there IS something wrong, if it's only just started doing this a comp or leakdown will tell the tale on ring condition, If all is well you can get away with just the lines to the filter but add in some wear/higher boost and you will get to a point where it will breathe heavily and the pressure has to escape somewhere.

This time it's out the Dipstick sometimes it will pop seals and cam cover gaskets.

As for the hose from the Cam cover to the block it's just a drain nothing more, think of it as a hole drilled from the head to the block.

 

[Hmong_1G]

I like to comment on the 4G63 motor. It's still a motor and all engine has some kind of positive crank ventilation ( wiki for more answers or ask Jdub). Why does the 1G dsm have this problem? Old age, old oil dip stick, EXCESSIVE blowby, ect. A factory PCV system is adequate based on design and function. It all falls down to EXCESSIVE BLOWBY (leaking through rings, valve seals, HG, ect)

 

[IJ.]

Catch can filled with stainless pot scrubbers, lower line from cam covers upper to Filter

RED from Cam Covers
BLUE PCV Valve and line to After the TB
GREEN Common line with the -10 back to between the Filter and Turbo

 

[suprafanatic]

So are you saying i really dont need the line that goes to the TB? and i should just run the lines off the valve covers to the intake?? And i should increase the size of the lines im running?

I went advancedauto and picked up the PCV check valve and put it in the line between the valve covers and intake. Its in there so when the TB pulls in vaccum the check valve will shut and allow it to pull more vaccum from the valve covers. Is this correct to do?

I also took off the whole system and check for any clogging and it was all free flowing. The catch can doesnt seem to be catching any oil though. There is a very very small amount in the bottom of my catch can.. but that has been there for several months now and it hasnt collected any more oil. Is that a good sign or bad sign?

 

[jdub]

Unless you route the line like the diagram (and like Ian's pics), it's not going to have much oil in the can. There is not enough vacuum at the accordion hose to do squat. That is not what Ian is telling you to do...he gave you a cliff notes history and said the cam cover to accordion path was over whelmed by crank case pressure.

Read Ian's post carefully:

I add in a post TB PCV circuit copying Toyota's original design add in a valve and it works perfectly

The color coding he add on the last pic reflects this. The diagram I pointed you to is identical...it is the stock system with a couple parts added. Placement of the can is critical to put vac on the can.

You really need to determine the cause of crankcase pressure sufficient enough to pop the dipstick.

 

[grimreaper]

ive had this with small lines on the pcv ports. everything (the ports as well) has been enlarged and no more dipstick removal... I never had any issues before hand until over 5500rpms though. compression was 150-162 across all 6.

going off IJ's fix, the brake booster vac supply has a rather large one way valve. My original game plan was to use an extra valve like if did. havent need it yet though..

your lucky your seals arent pushed out though. With a new dipstick that seals tightly you could be replacing all the seals

 

[suprafanatic]

my dip stick is pretty old and kinda melted actualy, doesnt really seal at all

 

[suprafanatic]

my PCV system is set up just like stock except with the catch can that is in the line between the intake pipe and the valve covers and TB. And now the Check valve is also in the line so the TB can pull more vaccum from the valve covers.

 

[ma71supraturbo]

To the OP:

Since you mentioned your engine build is recent, that raises my suspicions more than normal... I'd start with a compression test as when an engine build goes wrong, you usually find out pretty quick.

If compression comes back OK, then I'd look more into the PCV system. And I'd probably start with your catch can (hell, I'd probably go back to 100% stock setup and see if that fixes your problem).

If the PCV system checks out, then I'd look at the dipstick O-ring and hope that your engine builder just reused the old one (though I still don't think it should be able to push up a dipstick unless there was some serious crankcase pressure).

Now on to the accordion tube. Please explain to me how under boost (or any other time for that case) there is no vaccume drawn from the accordion tube? Its only purpose is to pull air from the AFM to the turbo. There will be a small vaccume draw (especially at boost when the air flow thru there is at max) because the lines run into the accordion tube.

You brought fluid dynamics into this, and fluid dynamics will show you that air moving in one direction will draw more air in to fill the space left by the exiting air. Thus creating vaccume. Now Jdub, I know you know what you are talking about in general, but sir you are very WRONG in this case. It goes air filter, AFM, accordion tube, turbo. Would you care to explain what if no vaccume is produced is happening in the accordion tube? There is not boost there as it is before the turbo, so is the air ambient/stagnant?

Jdub is right. I calculate that when the accordion is flowing 450cfm of air (~300hp) it'll see at most 0.4psi of vacuum. That's assuming there's no air filter, but I'd be surprised if there was more than 0.1psi pressure drop across the air filter (I didn't feel like trying to calculate drop @ the air filter, but Mazda Miata nerds have measured 0.07psi pressure drops on their paper filters: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest2.htm and that seems more than reasonable)




PS: its spelled vacuum. Not that I should be talking -- engineers are typically pretty shitty with spelling, but firefox has this nice little squiggly red line that helps me out... (it even tells me that firefox should be capitalized -- but I'm the boss, I'll show it!).

 

[ma71supraturbo]

my dip stick is pretty old and kinda melted actualy, doesnt really seal at all

A new dipstick is all of $12 from Champion...

 

[jdub]

my PCV system is set up just like stock except with the catch can that is in the line between the intake pipe and the valve covers and TB. And now the Check valve is also in the line so the TB can pull more vaccum from the valve covers.

This is the last time I'm going to say this. That is not going to work...at least if you want a functioning catch can. The PCV valve between the TB and cam covers will just stop the reverse flow necessary to push vapor to the accordion hose (or catch can in your case).

I am really wondering why you can't set it up like the diagram I pointed out or like what IJ showed you in the pics. What is the problem...are we not being clear?

If you are not going to set it up this way, you might as well remove the catch can and PCV valve. Go back to stock.

 

[suprafanatic]

why would you hope that It would be an old O-ring being used on the dip stick? because i can tell you right now that it is an old one.

 

[suprafanatic]

The PCV valve between the TB and cam covers will just stop the reverse flow necessary to push vapor to the accordion hose (or catch can in your case).

Jdub, i dont think you understood me clearly, or maybe i didn't make it very clear. The PCV Valve is NOT inbetween the TB and cam covers. The PCV valve is inbetween the cam covers and the intake pipe on the turbo. Positive pressure can still be pushed from the TB to the intake pipe on the turbo.

 

[grimreaper]

the "loose" dipstick seal is saving you from having to replace all your seals. Ive been running a stockish setup with no catch can (lines run just like stock though) and have yet to see a drop of oil in my ic.

im confused on your setup. Re route everything like stock, no added valves, no catch can and see what happens...

 

[suprafanatic]

TB------cam covers--------catch can---------intake pipe

This is a simplified way of how mine is set up, The dash lines represent the lines connecting them. The only difference that i see between the diagrams and my setup is that they have a seperate line from the catch can to the TB. So instead of just two lines going to the catch can they have 3. either way my catch can is still connected to the TB, just not on a seperate line.

 

[suprafanatic]

Page 5 of this link has a picture. it is the same routing that i have with my PCV system

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43167&page=5

How ever i will put it back to stock form if thats what you all think i should do for now.

 

[jdub]

Jdub, i dont think you understood me clearly, or maybe i didn't make it very clear. The PCV Valve is NOT inbetween the TB and cam covers. The PCV valve is inbetween the cam covers and the intake pipe on the turbo. Positive pressure can still be pushed from the TB to the intake pipe on the turbo.

I did misunderstand and that still won't work.

TB------cam covers--------catch can---------intake pipe

This is a simplified way of how mine is set up, The dash lines represent the lines connecting them. The only difference that i see between the diagrams and my setup is that they have a seperate line from the catch can to the TB. So instead of just two lines going to the catch can they have 3. either way my catch can is still connected to the TB, just not on a seperate line.

Think about this...the idea is to put vac on the catch can and pull in vapor to the can from the cam covers. Is that possible with the way you have it set up?

 

[suprafanatic]

haha.. ok now i feel stupid.. So the catch can needs to be setup so that it will catch blow by from going to the intake pipe, and from going into the TB.

So the only proper way to set it up is to have 3 seperate lines going to the catch can. One from the cam covers to the CC, one from the Tb to the CC, and one from the intake pipe to the CC? I think the idea has finaly clicked in my head.