God I hope it's not a V6. I have an extreme hatred of V6's. They're poor designs all the way through and the only reason to ever use one is for packaging requirements.
News from Jalopnik New Supra? UPDATED INFO from JalopniK
- Thread starter Turbo Habanero
- Start date
Poodles;1764450 said:
Ayup.
http://www.supramania.com/forums/sh...for-perfomance&p=472876&viewfull=1#post472876
A dozen years ago, Toyota said " We are not a Sports car company". Why should they be when they can't keep 4Runners on the shelf, and they have a huge margin. They said if they sell a sports car again, it would be in the Lexus line. So they can charge whatever they want. Say, 300,000 or whatever the price is on that LFA.
Saw something on Jalopnik about the 2014 or 2015 prototype that's been running around. Turbo v6 is what they've been testing supposedly... Makes me sad when BMW is giving up the I6, I'd be surprised if we EVER see another one if BMW gives them up. :nono:radiod;1764409 said:
I agree on the IS-F bit though, there really wouldn't be a need for a Supra if they'd do another 2 door in the vein of the SC (just for the love of all that is holy, do NOT make it as ugly as that SC430, makes me shudder just thinking about it). We shall see...
Eh, I hate the v6 idea too, they're NOT fun to work on, although that 700+ hp Camry that was on Jalopnik a couple weeks ago sounded quite nicely. About as nice as most JZ's anyway.Poodles;1764450 said:
Not sure where you're going with this post?supraman7mgte;1764459 said:
Nick M;1764576 said:
Pissing in our Cheerios again?
You're right though, building a low margin (if you make money on it at all) low volume sports car is a stupid business prospect, and the only way you can recoup your cost is to sell at absurd prices. Shame really, but that's reality for you.
te72;1764627 said:
I didn't say it was right. That is their take on it. I agree with Sam Walton (not his liberal kids) and Ray Croc. Ford starts the new Mustang GT about 27,000 optionless. I think it goes for about 32-35k on average MSRP. That is a great deal and a great car. It can be done. Toyota doesn't care.
The problem with mass production sports cars has always been price vs. market.
In today's world, with our safety regs, and the tech that goes into every car - even the compact, green cars, it's going to cost a fair bit to make a sports car.
The market share for sports cars is pretty much limited to the single male side of the population, with some committed males, less married males, a dash of married males with children, and a bare sprinkling of females. (Pretty much the demographics of THIS place, now that I think about it!) How much can that market afford to spend on a sports car? I'll guarantee you that for the most part, they can't even afford a new Mustang, which is about as cheap as they come. They have even less coin to spend on cars when they turn 21 and can legally buy alcohol. There's a completely different market segment for mid life crisis men, that's filled by the top model Mustang / Camaros and of course, the Vette.
Bottom line, Toyota has done the math, and the math says there isn't enough of a market to support a decent sportscar in today's market. Notice that all the other companies - minus Ford, of course - keep trying to kill their performance cars. They keep bringing them back, too, a constant battle seems to be going on between the designers and the bean counters. At Toyota, the bean counters won... probably explains why they are on the top of the heap at the moment, too.
In today's world, with our safety regs, and the tech that goes into every car - even the compact, green cars, it's going to cost a fair bit to make a sports car.
The market share for sports cars is pretty much limited to the single male side of the population, with some committed males, less married males, a dash of married males with children, and a bare sprinkling of females. (Pretty much the demographics of THIS place, now that I think about it!) How much can that market afford to spend on a sports car? I'll guarantee you that for the most part, they can't even afford a new Mustang, which is about as cheap as they come. They have even less coin to spend on cars when they turn 21 and can legally buy alcohol. There's a completely different market segment for mid life crisis men, that's filled by the top model Mustang / Camaros and of course, the Vette.
Bottom line, Toyota has done the math, and the math says there isn't enough of a market to support a decent sportscar in today's market. Notice that all the other companies - minus Ford, of course - keep trying to kill their performance cars. They keep bringing them back, too, a constant battle seems to be going on between the designers and the bean counters. At Toyota, the bean counters won... probably explains why they are on the top of the heap at the moment, too.
Stupid bean counters... I've always been a fan of the Miata (and Mazdas in general), they give you everything you need in that type of car, and very little (if anything) else. I don't need a nav system, 12 speakers, 14000 airbags (even one for the Achilles!), backup camera, blah blah blah... Give me 3 pedals, 5-6 closely spaced gears, 300-400hp, and a decently built car that isn't going to fall apart in 2 years of having fun with it. I mean, point in case, the MS3 doesn't even have an engine temp gauge. Little bit of paranoia in the Supra owner in me, but Mazda thought it unnecessary, therefore, you don't get one.
Is that too much to ask Toyota? Maybe bring back a Supra that CAN compete with the Mustang/Camaros, in a way that the Mk2 did. It wasn't quite as complex or nice as the Mk3, nor as focused and hard-edged as the Mk4, but it was still a great car that was more than competitive, at a relatively reasonable price. I'm fine with manual locks and windows, 2 seats, and a hardtop.
Is that too much to ask Toyota? Maybe bring back a Supra that CAN compete with the Mustang/Camaros, in a way that the Mk2 did. It wasn't quite as complex or nice as the Mk3, nor as focused and hard-edged as the Mk4, but it was still a great car that was more than competitive, at a relatively reasonable price. I'm fine with manual locks and windows, 2 seats, and a hardtop.
kneedragger85;1765006 said:
Like this, right?
http://orionzygarian.deviantart.com...8-8536697?q=sort:time+favby:rafaelrafael&qo=6
*please don't take that picture seriously :icon_razz*
GrimJack;1764713 said:
It doesn't seem so for Ford. The real problem is Toyota management has lost its way and no longer thinks Ray Croc and Sam Walton did it right.
And then we elected a Kenyan born, American hating (his words) Nazi for the white house.
It *is* so for Ford. Look at some real numbers... take the 80s, for instance, just because that's the age our cars came from.Nick M;1765210 said:
Average cars:
Year / Model / Price
1980 / Regal / 6119
1980 / Celica / 5964
1982 / Escort / 5189
1984 / Cavalier / 7171
1986 / Colt / 4999
1988 / Taurus / 9996
Average price: $6573
Sports cars:
Year / Model / Price
1980 / Camaro Z28 / 7263
1980 / Thunderbird / 6816
1980 / Firebird / 5992
1982 / Mustang / 6572
1984 / Camaro / 7571
1985 / Mustang / 7286
Average price: $6917
So, on average, if a young man just out of high school wanted to buy a car, he had to save up another 5% on top of an average car to get a sports car. That's less than the tax! Of course, every hot blooded young man wanted a sports car (or a 4x4) over an entry level car, and 5% wasn't a significant obstacle.
Look at it now, though.
2012 Ford Fiesta: $13200
2012 Ford Focus: $16500
2012 Ford Mustang: $22310
That's 69% more money than an entry level car today, the Fiesta, and 35% more money today than their mid level Focus.
I can say this with absolute certainty. If car manufacturers had maintained a sports car for 5% more than their average cars, they wouldn't be grumbling about a shrinking market, and every car manufacturer would still have a sports car. Most of them would still have TWO. They have deliberately priced themselves out of a market.