New(ish) MKIII owner (possibly over excited) Help wit build

[ballenspirit]

Hi Im definately new to the forum. Beginning of 2008 I became the proud owner of my uncles 1989 toyota supra turbo. However it had a blown hg and a laundry list of problems with the engine. After struggling with it for 8 months I needed something reliable so I purchased a acura rsx type s... After having it for 6 months I wanted my supra back!!! lol However in the driveway it sat until Sept 2012... I totaled my rsx (RIP PEPPER):nono:. So I turned my attention back to my MKIII. I bought an engine from a guy who bought it from Rabid Chimp and had never been installed $1000!!! Any way I jumped on it and sent it to my uncle to have him put it in at his shop... Needless to say I've gotten restless since then and found a guy selling his performance parts which include:

2.5 inch full exhaust
upgraded dual chamber downpipe (not sure exactly what brand and all..)
Intercooler with hard pipes
MAFT CPU
HKS Blow-off valve
hks air intake
and manual boost controller

I viewed all this running on his 87 mkIII and was so impressed I asked him how much for all of his upgrades... He answered $400!!!!!!!!!!:aigo:
Needless to say I packed all these parts in my bros 07 civic si:biglaugh: and left with a smile on my face. I forgot I had the MAFT Controller and bought a APEXI
piggyback last week...:nono: Ill sell that but yea im really enthusiastic!!!! Anyway for now im shooting for around about 300whp for now:naughty:... I know bigger injecters are needed and fuel pump upgrade. Lex AFM? sp?

My question is how should I go about starting this build? I mean most people gradually add parts right?

1. Downpipe/exhaust
air intake
2. intercooler and piping
blow-off
3. maft
boost controller

 

[mcammarn]

welll you should go with a 3in full ex. instead of 2.5
and also youll be getting more imo with the other stuff.
i put 277 with a 3in ex. with no cat and i.c piping

 

[AbsoluteSpeed]

300hp in a supra is a pretty simple recipe.

Lexus AFM + 550cc injectors + walbro fuel pump and a boost controller.
The downpipe, exhaust and hardpipes are all good ideas to help make power efficiently.

The MAFT Pro is total overkill though. Get a electric boost controller and call it a day.

 

[Dan_Gyoba]

No. The MAFT isn't overkill.

The MAFT is "Did I say 300HP? I meant 450. Maybe 500. Or was it..."

I would say that the 3" exhaust is a better idea though.

 

[AbsoluteSpeed]

Or he could give it to me because of the helpful advice I gave him!
Ill have my NA running on speed density lol

 

[supranewbie]

You're probably already aware, but one of the most important parts to think about buying is a wideband. Regardless how far you plan to go with your build. You want to make sure your setup isn't too rich or too lean. Either way can kill it dead in short order. With a wideband you can at least monitor where it's at and adjust/tune accordingly. 400 bucks huh? Nice work! Why don't I ever run into deals like that?
Good luck and have fun.

 

[supranewbie]

Unless, of course, you can do that with the maft you already bought.

 

[Dan_Gyoba]

A wideband is useful as a tuning device. If you are tuning it yourself, then it's useful. It's also something that you'll have to look at datalogs for (Or peak/hold values) since you'll probably be busy looking at other things while your engine is at its peak performance. It also does you no good at all if you don't have something to tune A/F ratios with. (The MAFT can do that, but if you just do the Lexus AFM and 550s - which is enough to get you to 300WHP - then it does no good at all, since you have no way of adjusting your A/F ratios, and the stock will keep it plenty rich enough to be safe.)

A wideband is not a panacea against running lean, and as I said, it does no good at all as a gauge. You have to use at least peak/hold values, and particularly you have to spend time looking at datalogs in order for it to do any good.

 

[supranewbie]

Huh. That's rather odd. Based on my own personal experience, I'm surprised to read that coming from you. Your other posts seem somewhat intelligent. If you have a boost controller, this guy does, you can add variable amounts of air to your mixture. Also, every Lexus afm I've seen has an adjustment screw that you can turn. Yet another way to tune with just these simple mods. Mine, when I got it, was running lean. I drilled out the fill on top of the adjustment screw so I could scew it in thereby decreasing the amount air. I also turned down the boost via my boost controller and was able to get the afrs down to a safe level. Unfortunately, as I later came to find, it was to late. My rings had started to weld to the pistons due to det. It's kind of disturbing to see someone with your experience telling a noob to go down that depressing road. Please be careful what you say here. It could cost someone a lot of money. Get the wideband. It'll make you feel better. Plus it's a relatively cheap way to see if you should be driving your car. Chances are you'll continue to change things anyway, making it more important.

 

[Dan_Gyoba]

I've seen people blow their motors saying "But the wideband looked fine" only to find later that they were just using it as a gauge.

I do apologize for inaccurate information with the Lexus/550s. If you do that mod properly, (Which is to say with at least the adjustment screw all the way in, if not replaced with the longer screw, all the way in) then the TCCS will keep the AFRs well into the rich zone, if anything making things too rich for optimum power.

I do stand by my statement that the wideband is not a panacea, and if you are not going to spend some time and effort going over those logs to see what's happening and when, then you might as well not bother.

I'll also say that if 300WHP were my goal, I would not have bought a wideband. I'd have set things up, and used an exhaust tip probe on the dyno. After that, with my AFPR and boost controller set, I'd have left the TCCS to do what it does, and shrugged it off when people told me how much power I was losing by running too rich.

 

[supranewbie]

Hey sorry ballen. You probably weren't looking to start a pissing match thread. I just really, really do not want anyone to have to tear down a good motor because of something that could have been so easily prevented. If you're like most supra owners, you'll have plenty of other stuff to keep you occupied. Does your down pipe have have the turbo elbow? The stock one becomes pretty constrictive when you start trying to make more power. And dan? I still like your sig.

 

[7M4EVR]

OP...idk why those two went off on that tangent they both know a wideband is a very useful asset. Anyway...first thing is first download the full tsrm, get ur ass into ur uncles shop and double, triple check all the clearances on that new motor. Then slap everything on u have bought for it. Your 2.5 in exhaust will be fine for now...maybe go to a 3or 4 inch muffler out though. Spend some money on a good rebuilt ct26 turbo, make sure u have a good oil and cooling system. Tune, monitor, maintain, and ull be happy

 

[ballenspirit]

thanks for all your responses... I remeasured the exhaust... its a 3 inch... ill take pictures of all the parts tomorrow...

 

[Dan_Gyoba]

Anyway, yeah the parts you have are a good start.

I would definitely add an AFPR to the mix though, and a better fuel pump. You'll need bigger injectors, but you don't need the Lexus AFM if you're going to use the MAFT. For 300-450 WHP, the 550s will do the job, but I'd probably consider 750s for headroom, and when you decide that 300 isn't enough. You won't outgrow the 750s (IMO) on stock internals in any event, and probably not even the 550s, but I have a personal policy of not buying stuff that I'm planning to replace for any reason other than it reaching the end of it's serviceable lifespan. With the MAFT, the wideband does become very useful, since you will now be able to tune your fuel curve, and you really don't want to run lean.

Exhaust at 3", you're good to go. If you put it together carefully, it shouldn't give you any problems and will run great.

For me, adding to what you have, my shopping list would start with and AFPR, upgraded fuel pump, and a wideband with data logging. This won't get you that much extra power, since you'll be maxing out the stock injectors soon enough. Maybe 250-275 WHP with a safe conservative tune.

After that, new injectors, and re-tune the MAFT. This won't actually get you much more power, since the stock CT-26 won't out-breathe the stock injectors by a lot, but it's safer to finish upgrading the fuel system before you upgrade the turbo. Somewhere around here, you'd better take a look at your clutch, too, because you're about to head out of the range that it can handle. It should still get you to your 300WHP though.

Now you're ready for a 57 trim CT-26, or maybe even a 60-1, though the information that I have is that the 60-1 in a CT-26 gets close to the edge of what the CHRA can handle. Some would say it's more than it can handle.

 

[7M4EVR]

Yeah...I was under the assumption he was already upgrading the fuel system...but yes that should be high on the list...here's what my build is and I'm hoping to break 400rwhp after assembly and tune. All I am waiting on is block to be machined:

3in custom dp to full 3in custom exhaust
K&N air intake
550/lexus/255walbro
Godspeed dual core aluminum radiator
Rebuilt head by CCH
Alberts 60-1 trim CT26
Hard pipes
Rebuilt bottom end, kept mostly stock internals
New oil pump/shimmed
Stock manifolds-cleaned and very shiny lol
Wideband/safc/afpr
MSD wires
Metal head gasket/all new gaskets
Aftermarket clutch (put in before I got the car)
And a bunch of little stuff I have acquired..prly forgetting stuff

That's the way I went about it just did it all at once...spent a little under 5 grand total. Not saying this is the best way just wanted to share what I did...good luck and welcome

 

[ballenspirit]

All good information:icon_bigg... Perhaps I should better explain my objectives and stance here... Im a college senior I will graduate from Georgia Tech with a degree in electrical engineering (im really not that smart though lol!) anyway im looking at a pretty good salary range for coming out and the my future plans for this supra may go beyond the normal owner... Im not into BMWs, lexus, or any newer exotic (unless toyota releases a new supra then maybe)... The supra will be my "Baby Mama.:love:" That being said I have no $$ restrictions over time. Also I dont wanna shoot for 500whp and I dont even know how 300whp feels. Like I said I had a rsx type s before this (o_0 wheres the torque???)

Anyway right now 300whp seems to be conservative target able. At least until I purchase a house with a garage where I can become a mad scientist:naughty: lol Im the type of person that wants to build hp/tq rather than buy it... Seems like there more pride in what you have...

Seeing the above...
wideband (definately in the future)


Replies:
mcammarn- definately have a 3in sorry about the mislead but we're in business

AbsoluteSpeed- Ill hold on to the maft for future build options :biglaugh:... eventually I will invest in an electronic boost controller... manual do for now?

supranewbie- I will be getting a wideband. yea the guy apparently didnt want to part it all out.. smh I just asked him to come up with a price... nice guy... hope i can pass it along to another supra enthusiast down the road!
I believe so on the turbo elbow Ill take pics. Im not entirely familiar with everything coming from an NA rsx..

7m4evr - full tsrm? link? Id be interested to see how your build turns out 400whp too much for my blood right now lol

Dan_Gyoba- Thanks for the info... Yea, I will be getting all the supporting mods big or little... Clutch integrity im sure will be maxed out soon... I actually thought about just buying one and getting it installed with the engine... looking back the engine will probably be right back out in a year so Ill just wait... I have a guy selling 750 injectors... sell the apexi get the injectors looks like the right move. Ill look into other turbo options when I look to changing the clutch, and stronger engine components... is that logical?


So Ill probably be redoing the fuel system in jan/feb. Can I still put all these mods on safely until then? Maybe a better question is what type of psi can I SAFELY support with just what I have? Maybe a whp range? I guess whp will mean nothing to me until I can get those fuel components upgraded. Pics soon to come thanks!!!:naughty:

 

[ballenspirit]

Attached are the photos as promised

 

[ballenspirit]

Blow off valve and intake

 

[radiod]

Just to be clear, I think a lot of people were thinking "MAFT Pro" when you said MAFT, this unit is not nearly as configurable as the MAFT Pro. It basically allows you to put in a MAF (such as what you'll typically find on GM's) rather than the stock Karman Vortex meter. I honestly don't know how much tweaking you can do with it.

Personally I'd replace the mushroom air filter with an AEM dryflow or equivelant. I've seen poor filtration/flow from a lot of those types and a lot of them have a tendency to start breaking apart if they're not replaced regularly. I'd rather not have air filter foamies going through my engine :icon_razz

Also, the downpipe you have is set up to be divorced but doesn't have a tab to seperate the wastegate flow from the rest of the exhaust. If you do some measuring you can get someone to weld in a small tab to fit inside the turbo flange and make that seperation to get the full advantage of a divorced downpipe. Be warned though that if the tab hits anything at all you won't get a proper seal when you bolt it up and you'll create an exhaust leak. Exhaust looks nice otherwise....depending on what the muffler/resonator is like it has the potential to be really loud though. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing (I love it that way )...

On a stock turbo you should be able to get 10 - 12psi on stock fuel bringing you in the 280 - 300whp range. If you went with an upgraded wheel (57-trim seems to be very balanced in response vs. extra flow) you can sometimes dip in just below fuel cut which is right around 300whp. I ran an OEM replacement clutch on 57-trim @ 12psi and it didn't have any issues coping with the power, but it was brand new and not already worn/abused. I'd definitely recommend looking in to other options though if you aim to go any higher.

My recommendation would be to try and leave the electronics/fuel alone as much as possible, get it running right, and then start adding the extras. Much easier to troubleshoot problems with a simpler/stock system than it is when you start adding stuff. 300whp will feel faster than your RSX did, but because of the extra weight of the Supra in reality it won't be that much quicker. A little bit, but not terribly much

 

[7M4EVR]

^ but u will be riding in style now