morganson's COP S-Type setup
- Thread starter morganson
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jetjock;2033683 said:
Actually monsieur JJ, Morganson tested the DG500 coils to work wired in series on our igniter.
Than, he felt the need to use a voltage step up converter to supply a series of two plugs with 24V, so 12V each.
Then, I go into crazy thoughts...
As our stock igniter is current controlled, increasing the voltage should increase the spark power, that's it. I use E85 in my car, it need a good strong spark to ignite, mainly when it's cold outside
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I see. You're aware in a typical ignition system (including the stock one) voltage will rise to whatever is required to ionize the gap and once ionization occurs will fall significantly and remain there for the duration of the burn time?
Within the limitations of a 12v system. I was simply looking into different options for the sake of diversity. I noticed a difference when going from 12v to 24v mainly in startup and throttle response not really peak output. I will, when i can, get this on a dyno and see how each makes a difference.
I wasn't aware of that. Could you light us on how HKS Twinspark, MSD DIS-4, or inline systems like Nology Powercore, Powerstorm Booster (I bet these later are just capacitor) work please?jetjock;2033719 said:
My understanding of coils is that of a capacitive amplifier (for lack of a better description) X voltage is put in saturation over predetermined time times coil amplification (3,333 for dg500 coil aparently) so if you put 12v in you get 40kv if 24v you get 80kv. Give or take. This is over simplified but the gist i think.
I just received my 24v up-converter in the mail yesterday, I'm looking forward to installing it.
I ordered a set of male and female oem igniter plugs, so that I can wire this in as a patch harness, and just remove it without splicing/ cutting anything.
I had an issue where I had no spark on cylinders 1 and 6, and couldn't figure out the issue. Originally thought that the coils or my coil harness was at fault.
I finally discovered that the plugs had fouled(brand new Bosch coppers). I tested the spark externally on a spare plug, and the spark seems very weak/ dim.
I swapped out all plugs to NGK platinums, and will be curious to see if the visible spark will show any noticeable improvement. Not the most scientific method, but its a start.
I ordered a set of male and female oem igniter plugs, so that I can wire this in as a patch harness, and just remove it without splicing/ cutting anything.
I had an issue where I had no spark on cylinders 1 and 6, and couldn't figure out the issue. Originally thought that the coils or my coil harness was at fault.
I finally discovered that the plugs had fouled(brand new Bosch coppers). I tested the spark externally on a spare plug, and the spark seems very weak/ dim.
I swapped out all plugs to NGK platinums, and will be curious to see if the visible spark will show any noticeable improvement. Not the most scientific method, but its a start.
Again, secondary voltage will rise (within design limits) to whatever it takes to ionize the gap. For properly gaped plug with the proper mixture (mixture is important) that will rarely be above 20kv. Once the gap is ionized and current begins to flow voltage falls quite significantly for the duration of the burn time.
More secondary voltage is a double edged sword. While it will overcome larger gaps and weaker mixtures it also strains secondary components, namely plug wires, boots and most importantly, coils. It doesn't take much to punch through the thin film of insulation on secondary windings resulting in shorts to adjacent ones. I've seen that happen even on the stock setup. It's why you should never allow open circuit triggering of the secondary when troubleshooting. You may get away with it most times but when the damage occurs it's not repairable.
Bottom line: increase secondary voltage is risky, especially on coils and other secondary components that weren't designed to handle it. Not to mention the increased electrode erosion it can cause.
More secondary voltage is a double edged sword. While it will overcome larger gaps and weaker mixtures it also strains secondary components, namely plug wires, boots and most importantly, coils. It doesn't take much to punch through the thin film of insulation on secondary windings resulting in shorts to adjacent ones. I've seen that happen even on the stock setup. It's why you should never allow open circuit triggering of the secondary when troubleshooting. You may get away with it most times but when the damage occurs it's not repairable.
Bottom line: increase secondary voltage is risky, especially on coils and other secondary components that weren't designed to handle it. Not to mention the increased electrode erosion it can cause.
I'm aware of that Monsewer. Perhaps I'm unaware of what people are trying to accomplish here and with what. Does the primary (or primaries) remain 12volt?
As the coils are wired in series, they see a voltage of 6Vdc each.
Using a 24V step up converter will bring their 12volts back ;-)
Using a 24V step up converter will bring their 12volts back ;-)
This is what i have been getting at the whole time i fixed this problem by wiring 2 ignitors and wiring coils in parallelRollus;2036650 said:
Just been looking for someone to test at 18 to 20 psi for me.
KKZ SupraMan;2036577 said:
I will be testing at 0 psi, lol. More specifically, I just want to avoid fouling plugs at idle/ in vacuum.
In general, the move to DG500 coils was almost entirely for aesthetic reasons, as the oem setup works well.
However, using these Ford coils with the stock igniter actually seems to produce a weaker spark output, without an accompanied increase in voltage.
As for where I'll be during normal ops; I have no plans to operate above 15psi.
I see the clean up of the COP as an ok thing (Not great, not necessary).
blow out?
maybe in my old age I have alzheimer or dementia but didn't the 1000+ hp Buick GN swap there systems for...
the 7m-gte coils?
voltage reduction need to double the dwell time. you will not achieve the dwell needed past 5k at 6v. Adding a step up to 24v is now adding complexity and cost.
blow out?
maybe in my old age I have alzheimer or dementia but didn't the 1000+ hp Buick GN swap there systems for...
the 7m-gte coils?
voltage reduction need to double the dwell time. you will not achieve the dwell needed past 5k at 6v. Adding a step up to 24v is now adding complexity and cost.
I dont see the gains for this mod besides pretty then having to buy a box to make the coils oprate at full steam.
spark blow out should not happen if a box is used. But its hard on stock mini coils like noted above. The stock 7mgte coils are very beefy and can be amped up easly granted you could buy msd coils and they will be better but msd shit fails so much there tec support line has 3000000000 oprators answering phones haha
this bring me to what i have i was thinking on runing is300 coils but i not sure how they will handle the setup box micro tec has yet to get back to me on that one
spark blow out should not happen if a box is used. But its hard on stock mini coils like noted above. The stock 7mgte coils are very beefy and can be amped up easly granted you could buy msd coils and they will be better but msd shit fails so much there tec support line has 3000000000 oprators answering phones haha
this bring me to what i have i was thinking on runing is300 coils but i not sure how they will handle the setup box micro tec has yet to get back to me on that one
From what I understand 6 ford coils wired in series with 1 ignitor each coil sees 6 volt hints the need for a 24v step up to make each coil see 12v.
And with 6 ford coils wired in parallel with 2 ighnitors each coil sees 12v voltage step up not needed.
both setups seem to work very well for me but i have not tested above fuel cut.i do not think either of these setups should be discredited until this can happen i personaly have seen these coils do some serious work on a boosted mustang with no problems so i dont see y they shouldnt work very well.
And with 6 ford coils wired in parallel with 2 ighnitors each coil sees 12v voltage step up not needed.
both setups seem to work very well for me but i have not tested above fuel cut.i do not think either of these setups should be discredited until this can happen i personaly have seen these coils do some serious work on a boosted mustang with no problems so i dont see y they shouldnt work very well.
supraguy@aol;2036536 said:
Anychance you have a diagram of how you patched it in? I would like to do this as well.
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Hey guys, poping on for a min to shed some love. I am in the navy now so i dont get to get on often.
Now to fix this misconseption on voltage drop across iron core transformers (ignition coils) the voltage is common across series or parallel. In fact due to the very small impedance on each coil (2.4m ohms) there is next to no loss on each coil. The problem we run into is current loss on the secondary side. What goes into the coil is not quite as important as how it comes out of the coil. Now the DG500 coil is about 1:2500 (Np to Ns) 12v in (Ep) = about 30kv (Es)
This shows us a gain across the iduction. However the large gain has a cost. Stock system runs at about 6 amp (Ip) the loss to the secondary settles around 2.4mA (Is)
This is a huge loss. And the same no matter what wiring setup we use. If we use a booster we can raise voltage and current. 24v 10A (EP/IP) Gives us 60kv 4mA (Es/Is). If we use 18v 30A (30A is the limit of continuous duty for the dg500) we see 45kv 12mA. The gain in this equation is much higher on the current. We will have a much hotter spark with this.
So those that feel that the series setup is inferior to the parallel. You are mistaken. Due to increased inductive reactance in the series setup it has the greater output. Im still working on the math for the parallel. These are my findings so far. Im keeping the project alive.
Also i would still love for this to get stickied.
Now to fix this misconseption on voltage drop across iron core transformers (ignition coils) the voltage is common across series or parallel. In fact due to the very small impedance on each coil (2.4m ohms) there is next to no loss on each coil. The problem we run into is current loss on the secondary side. What goes into the coil is not quite as important as how it comes out of the coil. Now the DG500 coil is about 1:2500 (Np to Ns) 12v in (Ep) = about 30kv (Es)
This shows us a gain across the iduction. However the large gain has a cost. Stock system runs at about 6 amp (Ip) the loss to the secondary settles around 2.4mA (Is)
This is a huge loss. And the same no matter what wiring setup we use. If we use a booster we can raise voltage and current. 24v 10A (EP/IP) Gives us 60kv 4mA (Es/Is). If we use 18v 30A (30A is the limit of continuous duty for the dg500) we see 45kv 12mA. The gain in this equation is much higher on the current. We will have a much hotter spark with this.
So those that feel that the series setup is inferior to the parallel. You are mistaken. Due to increased inductive reactance in the series setup it has the greater output. Im still working on the math for the parallel. These are my findings so far. Im keeping the project alive.
Also i would still love for this to get stickied.