I need to pick between Maftpro and standalone

[toml]

Okay, so I'm still new to the whole car mechanics/tuning/modding thing... and now I'm stuck.

I've rebuilt the 7M in my daily driver after BHG, with a metal head gasket, ARP head studs, ARP conrod bolts, new semi-forged pistons, bearings, machined head, crank, rods, etc.

I've been planning for months now to pick up a MAFT Pro before I start modding too much more, so I can tune and log my engine as I add things.
I like the MAFT Pro's ability to auto-tune from a wideband sensor, manage boost, monitor timing, convert to MAP sensing etc.

What I find discerning is the fact that the MAFT Pro is still just a piggyback. It is altering the stock ECU's inputs/outputs, making it perform a tast for which it was not designed.

I'd love to run a standalone but I'm concerned about a few things.

• Cost -- As far as I can see, the cost of purchasing and tuning the standalone would be about twice as much as a MAFT Pro. Is it really going to be worth it, when the MAFT Pro accomplishes the same outcome?
• Goals -- My long term goal is 500RWHP (whether that's achievable for me or not ), so the ECU I purchase would have to be capable of tuning to 500HP. How will the MAFT Pro+stock ECU cope at this level?
• Tuning -- The advantage of the maft pro being a piggyback, is that it can still rely on the stock ECU for a base tune. If I were to install a piggyback, I would have to get a base tune running first, then modify as necessary. I myself am not capable of setting up a base tune (although I would be willing to learn). Is the MAFT really going to be _that_ much easier to setup/learn how to tune?
• Reliability -- I know the MAFT Pro is a quality product, but is running a standalone ECU going to be any better than the MAFT, and if so, will that be worth it?
• Suggestions -- If I was to go standalone, could anyone recommend a product that seems to fit my needs?

Please let me know what you think and if you have any questions, let me know.


Thanks,
Tom

 

[Supraboostin]

if your goals are only 500whp then you just stick with maftpro

 

[GrimJack]

MAFT pro should have no problems with your goals. That said, a standalone is without question, superior, if you can spring for the cost, get one.

 

[josh930]

I saw that you said you would need a base tune for a piggyback. The stock maps are the piggybacks base tune.... you are just adding or subtracting fuel from the stock maps. Only a standalone would need base maps.

 

[IJ.]

Standalone.

 

[toml]

Thanks for the opinions guys.
Most people seem to say "The MAFT will handle it, but Standalone will be much better". Why? How is a standalone going to be superior and how does it affect me/my car?

I saw that you said you would need a base tune for a piggyback. The stock maps are the piggybacks base tune.... you are just adding or subtracting fuel from the stock maps. Only a standalone would need base maps.

Can't see where I said that, but that's not what I meant. I understand only a standalone needs a base map.

IJ: You seem pretty certain that a standalone is the way to go, may I ask why? Did you do all the tuning of your Wolf3D yourself? and finally, what made you choose the Wolf3D over any of the other standalone ECUs out there?

Thanks!

 

[group a supra]

standalone sir

 

[figgie]

Thanks for the opinions guys.
Most people seem to say "The MAFT will handle it, but Standalone will be much better". Why? How is a standalone going to be superior and how does it affect me/my car?


Can't see where I said that, but that's not what I meant. I understand only a standalone needs a base map.

IJ: You seem pretty certain that a standalone is the way to go, may I ask why? Did you do all the tuning of your Wolf3D yourself? and finally, what made you choose the Wolf3D over any of the other standalone ECUs out there?

Thanks!

the answer is quite simple

a stand alone has ZERO limitations. All standalone do a basic function of adjusting timing and fueling requirements based on inputs. Of course to get those fuel and ignition requirements needs somebody that knows what they are doing to input them. What this means is that if you tell the standalone to run 50 degree of timing at 30 psi of boost it WILL run that much timing at the cost of your engine. Standalones are extremly flexible but rest assured that with a standalone one wrong input from an incompentent tuner will grenade your motor in short order.

From all the research that I have done Toyota used the algorithm in the 7m ECU ONLY. Why is this important you ask? It is the ONLY toyota ecu that ties timing with air flow. Why I am still baffled as Toyota went away from that on the 2jz.

 

[IJ.]

Tom: It was a price Vs features decision for the Wolf.

It has a LOT stuffed in it for the price and can pretty well do everything I require has plenty of Aux channels and comes with a hand controller so you don't have to lug a laptop around for small adjustments.

I've done all the initial setup and tuning then taken it to a dyno for fine tuning and if they'd let me I'd do that as well! (I sit beside em and tell them what I want it to do and point at each setting I want changed I'm sure this shits them but it all happens faster and safer than letting someone loose with it)

As Figgie has pointed out the Standalone has NO limitations so this means you CAN grenade a Motor if you're not careful as there is no safe mode!
(there's a 7Mgte base map to get you started)

 

[Nick M]

There is always that e-manage. From what I have read, a Lex and e-manage is where I will be headed. Not at 500hp though, so that is a big difference.

 

[Boss302]

from what i've read and heard as far as a stand alone the AEM EMS is the simplest one and the way to go and does everything you would need cause it is a stand alone. with either one maft or alone there will be tuning time to get it cooking the way you want it's just a matter of A: how far do i wanna take my car, B: how versatile and open do i want my options in tuning to be, C: cost vs. versatility to your needs. me i'm going to go stand alone.

 

[figgie]

from what i've read and heard as far as a stand alone the AEM EMS is the simplest one and the way to go and does everything you would need cause it is a stand alone. with either one maft or alone there will be tuning time to get it cooking the way you want it's just a matter of A: how far do i wanna take my car, B: how versatile and open do i want my options in tuning to be, C: cost vs. versatility to your needs. me i'm going to go stand alone.

simplest one to INSTALL.

It is actually one of the harder ones to get running right Why? Alot more tweakable options. But at the same time the AEM EMS DOES have limitations. See post #27 and post #28 for a tasting.

 

[Boss302]

so are we talking 2j or 7m?

 

[toml]

Thank you all for the information. I'm leaning further and further towards a standalone.

I suppose now I just need to go browsing around and see what options I have (Wolf, AEM, Motec, etc). I'll go talk to a few local tuners and see what they'd recommend and see if I can find a tuner that will help me tune the car.

I also like the look of the MegaSquirt II (mega bonus is that it's tunable with linux software), but I'm not sure how a DIY jobby would stand up to a pre-manufactured Wolf3D/AEM/etc...

 

[figgie]

in the end you are not paying for the standalone, you are paying for the SUPPORT.

My advise

if you are looking at standalone, you really need to figure out what you need in the ecu.

For instance, do you want to stay waste fire in the ignition department? Would you rather have a box to adjust the ecu then lug around a laptop? (Wolf and SDS only). Wideband feedback and finally, budget is probably going to be the biggest one to influence your decision.

 

[josh930]

. If I were to install a piggyback, I would have to get a base tune running first, then modify as necessary.
[/LIST]

It was here you said it. Sorry, no big deal...

 

[Boss302]

For instance, do you want to stay waste fire in the ignition department? Would you rather have a box to adjust the ecu then lug around a laptop? (Wolf and SDS only). Wideband feedback and finally, budget is probably going to be the biggest one to influence your decision.

so with these two you don't need a laptop they are "self-adjusting"?

 

[IJ.]

I wouldn't trust an ECU to "self adjust" even if it could Boss!

A dirty fouled 02 = potential kaBOOOM!

What Figgie means is the Wolf comes with a small hand controller so you can make adjustments on the go without the need to have a Laptop in the car but it's limited in what it can do and you still use a Lappy for tuning!

 

[figgie]

I wouldn't trust an ECU to "self adjust" even if it could Boss!

A dirty fouled 02 = potential kaBOOOM!

What Figgie means is the Wolf comes with a small hand controller so you can make adjustments on the go without the need to have a Laptop in the car but it's limited in what it can do and you still use a Lappy for tuning!

we have a WINAH!!!

sorry about not being clear

as IJ. stated those two EMS have a little controller to do adjustments. Of course not INITIAL setup (except the SDS system). The other that has it also is the powerFC BUT they don't make a unit for our car.

 

[toml]

in the end you are not paying for the standalone, you are paying for the SUPPORT.

My advise

if you are looking at standalone, you really need to figure out what you need in the ecu.

For instance, do you want to stay waste fire in the ignition department? Would you rather have a box to adjust the ecu then lug around a laptop? (Wolf and SDS only). Wideband feedback and finally, budget is probably going to be the biggest one to influence your decision.

Thanks for the advice.

Well, as for features:

• For now I think staying waste fire is sufficient, but as I increase power output I'd like to move to COP if possible.
• I've got a carPC lined up to go in the car so i'll be able to tune the ECU from there and won't require lugging around a laptop (if any ECUs have tuning software for linux is a big bonus for me as I would feel scared running Windows in my car ).
• I'd like to be able to compensate the air/fuel mixture based on wideband feedback.
• Sure, budget is always a deciding factor, but I'm dedicated to this car and if spending an extra $1k for an ECU with slight advantages over another is going to be worth it then I don't have a problem paying it.
• I also don't mind paying extra for a product with the same features as a cheaper one, but that is better well-known/supported by the Supra community or is known to work better and have less failures (eg. the MegaSquirt II seems to have all the features, but only a very few have successfully run it on a 7M, which leaves less people to help me if I break something! )

But then again, as I've said, I'm still learning about all this. I only like the ability to move to COP as it seems like a more reliable solution and because others seem to move away from waste spark when they grow their power -- I could be completely ignorant here, waste spark could be 'fine' to run 500HP.