Help Me Plan a GOOD GTE Rebuild on a Budget!

[Shytheed Dumas]

So, with blue smoke on start up, excessive blow by, and corrosion in my current (JDM) engine, I've decided to do a complete rebuild - my first - on what's left of the original engine with ~180,000 miles on it this winter.

The block looks great, including the bore, but the head's shot and warped 120 thou. I've got most of the rest of the long block, though, including mani's, TB, etc. I also have a NIB water pump ready to go on.

As for my goals, you can see my current mods list in my sig. Over the next couple of years, I would like to upgrade my catback, 550's/Lex, Walbro, and AFP. Well tuned, I think I would be able to make about 400 whp give or take, and I'm more than happy with that.

Well, I started pricing things out and I'm a little discouraged. So far I know my list looks something like this:

1. Cometic MHG - $170
2. JE Rings - $150
3. ARP Head Studs - $125
4. OEM Oil Pump - $240 (Aisin on Ebay is half that - please discuss!)
5. Clevite 77 Main & Rod Bearings - $100
6. Fan Clutch and Blade - $50 from SM member TBD
7. OEM Timing Belt - $50
8. Rebuildable GTE Head - $75 - $100 or $350 for recent rebuild from classifieds
9. Head Work - $300 at machine shop if I buy one to rebuild
10. Block Work - $?????

So that's a good start on the major items, and some of the prices are as I remember them but close. Adding up what I think I already know I will spend, I'm already topping $1,200 and that doesn't include any work at the machine shop on my block.

BIG QUESTION #1: What are the essential machining operations that need to be done and how much? Balance/polish the crank and machine the deck for MHG for sure, right? What else absolutely has to get done? What is nice, but can be left out?
BIG QUESTION #2: Any comments on making my dollars go further on my list of things to buy? I.E., would an HKS MHG for $100 be just as good, and what about the oil pump? Did I miss anything major (I know there will be a bunch of miscellaneous things like belt tensioner, etc)? Any recommendations on where to get the best price on some items, or things that are okay to buy used?

Of course it would be great to go with forged internals and spend a few thousand dollars more, but I have to be realistic here and remember my goals are pretty reasonable, so stock pistons & rods it is. Hell, if I make 300 to 350 dependable HP I'd be happy with that.

For now my goals are simple: Good, solid and dependable rebuild for minimal money without cutting important corners. Let me know what you think.

 

[Kai]

I'd suggest getting a replacement set of pistons and rings in 20 thou oversize, would make for a much tighter engine. Pistons can be had on a budget - i got some ceramic topped cast slugs with rings and wrist pins/circlips from CNSmotors on eBay - only cost me $90 for the lot - which would already shave $60 off your budget for rings only.

The aisin pump on ebay looks identical (and probably is) to the one that toyota sells, might as well get one of those.

Dont bother with the clevites either - ACL bearing set for mine (rod and mains) was only $50 - already you can get them for under $40 - and they're decent bearings too, see here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/86-9...014QQitemZ330158757169QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD2V

From what i understand, the cometic is the most forgiving MHG out there, HKS would be cheaper to buy but you'd need a perfect finish on the block for it to seal properly.

If you're just looking for longevity and reliability - why not stick with the stock HG and use ARP's to keep it clamped? 300 to 350rwhp shouldnt be beyond the remit of the stock HG as long as its kept held in place. Would save you a fair amount of machining work too. I dunno what the prices are for that, but i'm betting its just as expensive as it is here...

I would suggest also getting a new thermostat too, and a new top rad hose, and the one that goes to the back of the head...

Timing belt for $50? You're kidding, right? I got mine for $12 shipped - ADL Blueprint item. You can get a whole kit for less than $25:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/3-0L...emQQcategoryZ33625QQihZ014QQitemZ330158136913

As for machining - well, rebore and hone to match the pistons, crank polish, maybe a skim on the block if its in need of 'truing' (IJ would be able to advise better on this).

Cant think of anything else right now

 

[Shytheed Dumas]

Thanks Kai, exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.

On the budget pistons & rings - $90 for all six?! How many people have used these with success? Same question on the bearings? I see rod knock in your sig...

Also, did you use the stock rods with the pistons you bought?

Regarding the stock HG, I've got that set up now, and I'm scared to boost much over 10 or 11 psi. Now that I'm running a 57 trim CT26, I'd love to turn it up to maybe 18 after I take care of the 550's/lex/walbro set up. I think of it as leaving me room to grow.

 

[Kai]

The rod knock noted in my sig is still there, cause i havent finished the rebuild

These pistons here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/87-9...ryZ33623QQihZ007QQitemZ170143676443QQtcZphoto

are the ones i have, and according to the guy doing the block work says they're better than the standard cast slugs, a little lighter and of course, ceramic topped. Good for 350rwhp 'at least' according to him.

They're being used with the stock rods.

ACL bearings are the easiest to get, and they're pretty good for stock to medium power builds from what i can gather. They're nothing special, but they'll do the job nicely, and ACL is a known manufacturer.

Standard HG with 12 to 14psi should be okay - more than 1-bar is asking for trouble - but there are at least two guys i know of on the UK Mk3 Forums running 14psi with stock CT26's and stock HG's - one of them doesnt even have ARP's!

With 550's, lexus AFM and a 57 trim pushing 12psi - you should be well over 350 crank HP, although, you're only a catback - and not a catless system....can you get away with running a test pipe/gutting the cat?

 

[mattsplat72]

Heyb Dumas, I will have a head soon. Just had is worked and then blew a rod I will let you know asap

 

[F_T_F]

dont forget all the gaskets that youll need those add up or just get a gasket set for the 7m

 

[Shytheed Dumas]

Kai - No need for a cat here, I just have it on there for noise control right now. I will be going Tanabe when I get the chance.

Matt - This will be a winter long project, more because of funds than anything, so I'll be starting with the machine work on the block for now and buy the internals before I get to the head. I will check back with you when I get that far, in case you still have it.

FTF - You're dead right about the gaskets, and I haven't forgotten hoses, either. I was planning on buying a gasket set and get it out of the way all at once.

Thanks

 

[Shytheed Dumas]

So can anybody give me a breakdown on the NECESSARY (no luxuries here) machine work for the block and what I could expect to pay for each step?

 

[starscream5000]

Necessary work, don't really know on pricing though:

First, take in the TSRM, pistons,crank,and rods that you will use.

Cylinder hone if your clearances are out of spec for a re-ring job.

Resizing the mains and rods for standard bearings.

Check the clearances on the oil pump drive shaft and make sure they are in spec.

Spec out your rod bushings if reusing stockers.

Know what tolerances are required for new pistons of your choice if you go that route.

This should be done after crank work is finished.

 

[MDCmotorsports]

1. Cometic MHG - $170
2. JE Rings - $150
3. ARP Head Studs - $125
4. OEM Oil Pump - $240 (Aisin on Ebay is half that - please discuss!)
5. Clevite 77 Main & Rod Bearings - $100
6. Fan Clutch and Blade - $50 from SM member TBD
7. OEM Timing Belt - $50
8. Rebuildable GTE Head - $75 - $100 or $350 for recent rebuild from classifieds
9. Head Work - $300 at machine shop if I buy one to rebuild
10. Block Work - $?????

So that's a good start on the major items, and some of the prices are as I remember them but close. Adding up what I think I already know I will spend, I'm already topping $1,200 and that doesn't include any work at the machine shop on my block.

BIG QUESTION #1: What are the essential machining operations that need to be done and how much? Balance/polish the crank and machine the deck for MHG for sure, right? What else absolutely has to get done? What is nice, but can be left out?
BIG QUESTION #2: Any comments on making my dollars go further on my list of things to buy? I.E., would an HKS MHG for $100 be just as good, and what about the oil pump? Did I miss anything major (I know there will be a bunch of miscellaneous things like belt tensioner, etc)? Any recommendations on where to get the best price on some items, or things that are okay to buy used?

BIG ANSWER #1

To do this right, and do it once:

-That engine needs to be bored and honed Kurt.
-It must be hot tanked, baked, media blasted, all ports inspected, all threads chase tapped, and completely cleaned of all debris inside and out.
-New freeze plugs must go in.
-The crank will need to be ground by a professional shop to insure the main & rod journals aren't egg shaped. It must also be pollished. I highly recommend having it balanced according to what rod & piston setup you choose to use.
-The rod journals (both crank and wrist pin) need to be resized due to the high chance that they are egg shaped after 1xx,xxx miles.
-The block main journals must be checked for alignment and fixed if they are not happy.
-New oil pump
-Head cam journals must be checked for alignment and fixed if not aligned

BIG ANSWER #2
-The cams can most likely be reused. Again, they need a good cleaning and their lobes pollished
-Water pump. Cheap insurance. I know my first built went great unitll I tried to start the car. Water every where
-Gasket kit. Napa has Victor Reinz gaskets. These are the same gaskets that are considered OEM and they are made in Japan.
-Thermostat. Again, get a new one
-Hoses, especially all the little 90 elbow water hoses (behind the head, and below the thermostat housing to name a few)


Im sure I'll think of more, but if I were going to do every thing once, and do it right:

-20 over JE pistons
-Commetic head gasket (thickness going to depend on how much is taken off the head & deck of block)
-ARP head & Rod bolts / studs
-Some sort of aftermarket valve springs. I personally ran Ferrea, but they were a little extreme. 90 ft lbs is a little hefty.
-Valve guides and seals. Some guides will need replacing, others will not. A reputable engine shop will know this.
-Clevite bearings
-Stock rods shot peened, and x rayed / magnafluxed
-Head at least de-burred in the ports and then flow benched to insure each port is in harmony with each other
-EGR block off plates
-New oil pump
-Inspection of crank pulley and or a new one. Several owners have had the "I can't get the timing right" because the crank pulley was broken and they didn't know it.

That should be it. BTW, if you want the contact info of the guy who built my engine, lmk. You rode in it... you know how it ran. :evil2:

 

[Shytheed Dumas]

I hear you on the do it right the first time Jon, but damn! JE pistons alone are some serious cabbage. I would LOVE to do a build like the one you described, but it just isn't possible.

Your list of machine shop hafta do's is pretty close to a build thread I came across and in that case it was about $800. Once I get going on this, I would like to talk to your engine guy. Indy's a little out of the way, but doable.

Thanks for the info/suggestions guys.

 

[F_T_F]

dare i ask how much one would expect to spend on a rebuild like that.

 

[starscream5000]

~5K with good rods and pistons. This is with head work too.

Kurt, SBC valve spring mod, it's cheap and not quite as stiff as ferrea's, but better than stockers.

 

[need new tires]

if you are going to go threw rebuilding the 7m dont half ass anything.
i agree with new
pistions(forged)
bearings
oil pump
valve job
valve stem seals
gasket kit(duh)


that is what i would do minium, spend the money once and it will last you 150k+.

-shane

 

[7Mboost]

PROBE PISTONS!

 

[Kai]

Look guys, he doesnt NEED JE pistons - those cast slugs should be more than adequate for his needs - and as he said, he's on a budget, so theres only so much you can do. Theres a difference between half-assing something and being frugal.

 

[7Mboost]

Probe pistons are too cheap to put off, and its nice when you decide to upgrade.

 

[Shytheed Dumas]

I'll read up a little more on the probe pistons, but Kai's definitely thinking like me. There is just no justification for JE's given my goals.

My only question is how does the failure rate of the cast/ceramic topped pistons compare to stock, and for that matter Probe or JE in the power range I'm talking about? If there's no difference, then I'm damn likely to go hit ebay for $110 delivered, but if it's night and day I will gladly spend triple that for peace of mind over not having a piece of crap. There's no way I'm spending anywhere near the cost of JE's, though.

 

[wardog]

Hey bro check out the link on pos #2 and go into their store they have a package with 1. npr pistons 2. npr rings 3. oil pump 4. main bearings 5. timing belt kit 6. full egine gasket kit and a water pump or 300dllrs thats a steal and its on a budget. Stock internals will bemore than enough for 400+ rwhp good luck :naughty:

 

[dbsupra90]

kurt

stock pistons are going to be fine for what you want.

i have a hookup w/ a machine shop that will do everything from machine work to assy. pretty quick, good work, and awesome pricing.