GB feeler -- 7M Cams (new not regrinds)!
- Thread starter ma71supraturbo
- Start date
ma71supraturbo,
Thanks for clarifying that! I was a bit frightened when you said " no CPS gear"...LOL
I get it now though.
-Jonathan
Thanks for clarifying that! I was a bit frightened when you said " no CPS gear"...LOL
I get it now though.
-Jonathan
Jeff,
How much performance would you gain in cams? I was under the impression that cams really won't get much more power. It just moves the power band around. For me, I'm planning on squeezing everything I can out of pump fuel. So cams would give me a little more. I'll be in the buy if the Forum needs more people. I just don't know what the best cam is for my application. May be someone can help me?
How much performance would you gain in cams? I was under the impression that cams really won't get much more power. It just moves the power band around. For me, I'm planning on squeezing everything I can out of pump fuel. So cams would give me a little more. I'll be in the buy if the Forum needs more people. I just don't know what the best cam is for my application. May be someone can help me?
bluemax said:
Cams generally give a 10% increase in power. Some aggressive cams more, some mild cams less. But it is true that powerband will move around depending on the duration and lobe separation (some of this can be tuned with cam gears). For the most part, a mild cam will give you a bit more power from ~2000-6500. A moderate cam will give you more power from ~3000-7000, while a wild cam will give you large gains from ~3500-8000.
It is unfortunate that we had a fair number of cam choices 10 years ago -- when 400rwhp was an outstanding number. Cams on that car might produce 40 more horsepower, but because radical cams spit shims (requiring a costly entire valvetrain upgrade) most people at the time declared them ineffective from a $/hp standpoint and they were quickly discontinued as people found better manifolds and bigger turbos. Now we've reached a bit of a plateau. Look at the (outdated) 7mpower top 10. Only one guy has cams and they were near-stock duration 244 regrinds. Even Tony from Final stage is on stock cams. Yet Maeso is almost as quick (and fast) running Toda cams with a full-weight 7m MK3 (10.8 @ >130). Also look at the 7mpower HP curves. Most cars are losing horsepower in the 6000-6500rpm range -- when they could be making their maximum.
How many "forged by god's hand" 2JZ-GTE's are making over 600rwhp are on stock cams? Surprisingly few. Many 2JZ'ers upgrade to 264's while still on the stock twins! (For what it's worth, the stock longlock 2JZ record is ~800rwhp.) The record for a stock 7m cam? Final Stage Tony with 822rwhp. While everyone likes to use that fact to justify sticking with stock cams -- imagine another 10% (perhaps even more if he were to pick some wild cams)...
What about the guy making a nice 460rwhp on the SP61GT. He doesn't want to go to a bigger turbo -- it'll cost a fair amount to get a manifold, external wastegate, new intake, new downpipe, make new oil lines -- plus he still has to buy a new turbo. And maybe he doesn't want to have any extra lag. So if he really just wants to reach 500rwhp, why not throw in a set of mild cams? Not only will he reach (or come close to) his goal, but he would also enjoy a little faster spool and a fatter powerband. They also aren't a "disposable" upgrade like a turbo. Once upgraded, you can enjoy them on a variety of different turbo setups...
I should probably clarify on the lag comment. Going from stock to mild cams will likely help spool. Going from stock to moderate cams probably will not affect spool as long as the cams are degree'd properly. Move to lumpy cams and you'll spool slightly worse (typically 50-200rpm on a 2JZ with 272s-280s) but you'll gain it back -- and more -- up top.
ooooh
hell i would be up for a set of 264 cams and my application would NOT require the CAM gear on the exhaust
hell i would be up for a set of 264 cams and my application would NOT require the CAM gear on the exhaust
Adjuster
Supramania Contributor
I'm interested, but I belive you should also have HPF setup a shimless bucket option for the cams with more than 9mm of lift. (I belive that up to that point, and possibly 9.5mm it will not spit the shims, but over that amount, your running the risk of causing other damage to the head or entire motor.)
Either souce the bucketless shims from Japan off the Echo, or have them produced locally.
In any case, the market for this is going to be limited by the number of 7M's out there in any sort of modified state. (There are a few thousand, possibly 10,000 with mods to the point where these cams would be beneficial, but many of the "high end" customers are already there with custom shims, cams and other mods needed to benefit from the more radical setups.)
That being the case, I'd suggest if you don't want to offer the shims/springs and such as a kit, only build the cams that will work with the stock valve train gear.
My mods are 1mm OS valves and BBC inner springs. Both easy mods. (Especially the springs.)
A higher lift and slightly longer duration cam would be nice, and I'd be interested at the prices you indicate.
Either souce the bucketless shims from Japan off the Echo, or have them produced locally.
In any case, the market for this is going to be limited by the number of 7M's out there in any sort of modified state. (There are a few thousand, possibly 10,000 with mods to the point where these cams would be beneficial, but many of the "high end" customers are already there with custom shims, cams and other mods needed to benefit from the more radical setups.)
That being the case, I'd suggest if you don't want to offer the shims/springs and such as a kit, only build the cams that will work with the stock valve train gear.
My mods are 1mm OS valves and BBC inner springs. Both easy mods. (Especially the springs.)
A higher lift and slightly longer duration cam would be nice, and I'd be interested at the prices you indicate.
Adjuster,
I could not agree more!
I think Jeff and the team at HPF needs to research some nice shims and bucket set ups for our cars with the new cams....which we will have to do ANYWAYS.
Why get a 250'ish degree cam....its not that much more than stock!
IJ has some nice buckets in his car....from some 1.4 liter Toyota 4 banger from Japan...I think...But the price of them is as much as the shims from toyota...about $7 a piece....x24...:aigo:
I could not agree more!
I think Jeff and the team at HPF needs to research some nice shims and bucket set ups for our cars with the new cams....which we will have to do ANYWAYS.
Why get a 250'ish degree cam....its not that much more than stock!
IJ has some nice buckets in his car....from some 1.4 liter Toyota 4 banger from Japan...I think...But the price of them is as much as the shims from toyota...about $7 a piece....x24...:aigo:
Adjuster said:
well the ONLY issue with that is that they would have to keep stock of ALL the different sizes and the consumer would have to buy the cams. Test fit them and then order the correct shims. Eitherway they need a call back unfortunatly.
figgie said:well the ONLY issue with that is that they would have to keep stock of ALL the different sizes and the consumer would have to buy the cams. Test fit them and then order the correct shims. Eitherway they need a call back unfortunatly.
exactly. i think if you're going to be needing diff shims/buckets, you'll know how/where to source them yourself....no point in asking for the moon, just be glad we can possibly get "cheap" cams....
Adjuster said:
We are actually thinking the same things here. I've been trying to source a used head so we can test the Supraforums rumor of some random domestic valve spring (read: cheap & readily available) fitting perfectly. Getting springs and retainers will probably be pretty easy.
The hard part is the buckets. You would have to get the cams, install them on your stock shim-over-buckets, measure the lash on your base valvetrain, and calculate what size shimless buckets you would need and then have us ship them. We couldn't just ship out a set of shimless buckets that are our "best guess" for fitting your engine, because you'd rightly want to return the out-of-spec ones for ones that fit. We wouldn't be able to sell those returned shims as new, and would then get stuck with them creating a big headache. The other idea is that we would have one or two sets of shimless buckets that were all the same size. We would ship them out to each customer for them to use as a measuring guide and they would then ship it back. But with a group buy, we'd have 25 people waiting on a couple sets to get shipped back to us etc...
I guess the cliff-notes is, I definitely want to make a valvetrain package, but there are some logistical hurdles I'd like to find a way around... I'll keep you updated
LOL, I spent ~ 30 minutes typing and retyping my reply only to find my point had already been covered long ago. Thanks guys
ma71supraturbo said:
SF rumor? try a SOGI "rumor". it's actually a fact, the comp cams springs work fine....several "old skool" guys have been using them for yrs....p/n is on mkiiitech.com....
BTW- if you guys need a head to test stuff on, LMK. i have like 4 and would be happy to ship you one....
http://www.club4ag.com/faq%20and%20tech_pages/Lifter%20Tuning.html
I got you.
Thats the system IJ is using.
And the Springs:
http://www.mkiiitech.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=359
Thanks!
-Jonathan
I got you.
Thats the system IJ is using.
And the Springs:
http://www.mkiiitech.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=359
Thanks!
-Jonathan
http://www.powerandperformancenews.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=CC&Category_Code=SPRNGSI
Comp cams has three different "975" part numbers.
960 INNER (RED)
Code: 975-1
Price: $2.61
None in your basket
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
960 INNER (RED)
Code: 975-12
Price: $31.33
None in your basket
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
960 INNER (RED)
Code: 975-16
Price: $41.78
None in your basket
I am guessing that that is a pack of 1 or 12 or 16 if my math skills serve me right..
-Jonathan
Comp cams has three different "975" part numbers.
960 INNER (RED)
Code: 975-1
Price: $2.61
None in your basket
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
960 INNER (RED)
Code: 975-12
Price: $31.33
None in your basket
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
960 INNER (RED)
Code: 975-16
Price: $41.78
None in your basket
I am guessing that that is a pack of 1 or 12 or 16 if my math skills serve me right..
-Jonathan