Front spindle with out ABS

[Turbo Skegget]

Which years did the supra come without ABS? And can you without modifications just switch from ABS to none ABS no regarding year. Example can I take the front hubs from a -87 and put on a -91 without problems?

I know I can just unhook all the ABS parts rerouting some brake lines and be done, but I want it to look like a stock car without ABS.

 

[slidebabyslide]

yeah

 

[Turbo Skegget]

Is that an answer or are you also intrested in my question?

 

[arz]

Matts

Sorry to stalk you, but I will see if I can find a couple of my customers that can answer your questions, about whether you want to ditch the ABS.

The short answer to your question is YES you can install a spindle from a non ABS vehicle. Yes you can ditch all the ABS on the chassis.

In my opinion you dont want to. If you can keep the ABS PLEASE DO. You will be shocked at how well the ABS works with my brakes. I can do everything I ever wanted to when I push my car to the limits and when Im in over my head.... Whew I hear the ABS doing its job and what an amazing job it does. I will see if I can go fish some of my customers out that can help describe the differences.

Dont get me wrong it does a great job without ABS but with ABS its wonderful.

If your commited to a non ABS chassis, for some other reason then my appoligies.

 

[kwnate]

I have Andy's wilwood kit on my white car without abs. It stops like a mofo, but if you're not paying attention or are caught in an emergency stop on the street ABS is a wonderful thing to have. I have a different wilwood kit on my other car that has ABS, I'd rather have ABS. The only benefit to ditching the ABS is the extra room you gain in the engine bay. Not worth it IMO, it's not worth losing your car.

If it was a track car, where there are no retards pulling out in front of you and you have a more controlled environment then I would rather have no ABS. Both of my cars stop extremely fast one just stops safer. Your call...

If you really want that non abs look, you can buy the lines from toyota. I don't think you need to swap out the hubs though?

 

[Turbo Skegget]

Thanks for the answers guys. One thing I have heard, dont know if it true, is that a car without ABS stops faster than a car with ABS on warm dry tarmac. Perhaps this differs from ABS to ABS.

Since I am only using the car in the summer and I am interested in som track driving I have start thinking about ditching the ABS. Plus it weighs alot.

 

[ippyness]

i wouldnt drive a car that didnt have abs. id have no problem saying that an abs car could out stop a non abs car any day.. but who knows i havent driven on wilwoods with out abs.

 

[adampecush]

The difference between the non-abs and abs hubs are that the hole for the abs sensor is not drilled out of the casting on the non-abs hubs. If you want to completely remove the ABS, you can get the lines from a non-abs car, remove the ABS pump, clip the wires from the wheel sensors and it will look like your car never came with the option.

Short of your abs pump malfunctioning, there is no reason to do this however. Your car will always stop sooner with abs contrary to what you've been told (lockup does not stop you faster, and abs will not typically actuate when you are at the braking threshold, which is where you get maximum stopping power)

If this makes no sense, i apologize, i'm running on very little sleep.

 

[dansmith11]

think of it this way, your ABS is only doing something if your locking up your wheels. so you can still threshold brake and get just as much stopping power as a non-abs car, the abs is just an extra system there to bail you out if you happen to screw up your threshold braking and start to lock your wheels. so i would say keep it.

i thought about ditching abs too when i picked up the brakes from andy.. but im glad i didnt. it really does work beautifully. i like to roll down my windows on the track sometimes just so i can hear the sweet sweet noises of tires just barely on the edge of traction doing all they can to slow the car down. works damn near perfect.

 

[ValgeKotkas]

Thanks for the answers guys. One thing I have heard, dont know if it true, is that a car without ABS stops faster than a car with ABS on warm dry tarmac. Perhaps this differs from ABS to ABS.

Since I am only using the car in the summer and I am interested in som track driving I have start thinking about ditching the ABS. Plus it weighs alot.

Just wathched a test. Though that test was on ice, but the car with ABS had a 6 long steps (IIRC) longer stopping distance than that without ABS. First one went straight, but the second one went sideways And that was braking at about 25mph.
The stopping difference seems logical to me...

 

[arz]

think of it this way, your ABS is only doing something if your locking up your wheels. so you can still threshold brake and get just as much stopping power as a non-abs car, the abs is just an extra system there to bail you out if you happen to screw up your threshold braking and start to lock your wheels. so i would say keep it.

i thought about ditching abs too when i picked up the brakes from andy.. but Im glad i didn't. it really does work beautifully. i like to roll down my windows on the track sometimes just so i can hear the sweet sweet noises of tires just barely on the edge of traction doing all they can to slow the car down. works damn near perfect.

Dan is 100% correct, The ABS only does something if you lock up a wheel. It really is damn near perfect. Think of it this way, if your ABS already works, put the car together with functional ABS do some track days and see if it doesn't do everything you wanted. You can always pull the fuse install the proportioning valve and see which way you like better.

If you go thru all the trouble to remove everything you will never know what you are missing.

I am very critical of all ABS systems and I really wasnt convinced that ABS could be better than me when I was in the groove. Every time I rent a car and every time I get to take a spin in a vehicle that has ABS I try to actuate it as much as I can get away with just to see its limitations. I evaluate what I do and dont like about it. The ABS in this 3rd gen Supra in my opinion is everything you want in an ABS system. This system really lets you do as much braking as you can possibly do before it takes over. IMO it really doesn't take over it just assists.

I really think this ABS works so well, I would like to see if I can make it work on my old Z car.

As a test I challenged my friend Clifton to a brake test, it was silly but when it comes to cars, Clifton is usually down with anything that tests the limits of a machine. This being said, I must admit Clifton is a much better driver than me.

The challenge was this, I bet him my stock weight Supra with my brake kit could out brake his 2500 lbs completely modified 240 Z. Remember these are R compound street legal race tires, these will out brake any street tires any day of the week.

Cliftons car has the same Wilwood Forged Superlite calipers and pads in the front with 12 inch rotors, in back he has Forged Dynalite calipers and an .810 rotor and 12 in dia rear, 245 45 17 RA1's in the front for tires and 275 40 17 Kumho V700 in the back.

The Supra has my 13 inch 4 piston front brakes and 12 inch rear brakes, both have the same pad compound and caliper body. Front and rear tires are 275 40 17 Nitto 555Rii the wheels are 17 x 9 front and rear.

So there we are, 55-60 mph rolling in cruise, and I honk 3 times and we stab the brakes until we were both down to about 5 miles and hour. Believe me it looked silly, (we both laughed) but the Supra solidly beat a car that weighs more than 1000 lbs LESS with equivalent brakes. Out of all the tests, Clifton struggled to keep the vehicle on the edge of threshold. More than a few times he locked the tires up longer than he wanted to. I, on the other hand, club footedly stomped on the pedal.

We repeated the test with higher and higher speeds until we got solidly over 80 mph and I know we did several tests that were well over 110MPH.

These tests were back to back for about 15-20 minutes of driving and after a few stops you could smell rubber and brakes. GOOD TIMES LOL!!!

What we concluded was that the heavier Supra could definitely out-brake the lighter Z when the speeds were under 80 mph. Once we got over 85 the Z could take more speed out initially (until he had lost ground on me by about 1.5 to 2+ car lengths) and then we seemed to match each others speeds all the way down to 5 MPH or less. Earlier tests under 80mph seemed to reveal that the Supra and the Z could get from 80 down to 50 or so but the rapid decelerating rotating mass of the tires were easily locked under 50 mph in the non ABS Z. This is where the Z gained ground on the Supra every time.

Clifton stated that about 50 mph range down, that it was very difficult to keep the tires from locking up and continue decelerating at the same rate as the Supra.

Here is where the ABS paid for itself, when we were done, I had no flatspots and Cliftons tires were in sore need of replacement. This was no fault of Cliftons, he did his best and I felt real bad to be the one to instigate him into destroying his tires. He tried to make me feel better and be nice and remind me that he had a few flatspots on there from a previous event but none the less, he needed to replace his tires.

This 50mph on down, is exactly where you are bound to encounter an emergency maneuver that is likely to be the difference between a shiny car and a smashed car.

Just wathched a test. Though that test was on ice, but the car with ABS had a 6 long steps (IIRC) longer stopping distance than that without ABS. First one went straight, but the second one went sideways And that was braking at about 25mph.
The stopping difference seems logical to me...

I have seen many of these tests and like any test they will skew the facts. Usually they find the worst performing ABS system in the world (GM GEN1,and 2 ABS comes to mind) and they put a regular Joe in the ABS vehicle and put a professional race driver in the non ABS vehicle.

Think of it this way, I wouldn't be recommending keeping the ABS if it didn't work great.

 

[ValgeKotkas]

^That was some new VW car IIRC (new driving school cars) and I think it had on/off ABS for slippery course drive. So I guess the same drivers. But really dunno. They locked both, ABS and non-ABS brakes....sooo...
And yeah, television....

 

[dansmith11]

^That was some new VW car IIRC (new driving school cars) and I think it had on/off ABS for slippery course drive. So I guess the same drivers. But really dunno. They locked both, ABS and non-ABS brakes....sooo...
And yeah, television....

you also have to keep in mind thats theres a difference between threshold braking and allowing ABS to assist you when you apply slightly too much braking force, vs. just slamming on the brakes on a icey road.

 

[ValgeKotkas]

Agreed.

 

[cjsupra90]

think of it this way, your ABS is only doing something if your locking up your wheels. so you can still threshold brake and get just as much stopping power as a non-abs car, the abs is just an extra system there to bail you out if you happen to screw up your threshold braking and start to lock your wheels. so i would say keep it.

i thought about ditching abs too when i picked up the brakes from andy.. but im glad i didnt. it really does work beautifully. i like to roll down my windows on the track sometimes just so i can hear the sweet sweet noises of tires just barely on the edge of traction doing all they can to slow the car down. works damn near perfect.

Not exactly, ABS systems operate based on deceleration rates, not wheel lockup as many beleave. A properly functioning ABS system will activate and take control before lockup accures. The reason for this is that is some situations, a split second of lockup can be to late. This is all the reason why deleting it can allow for shorter stoping distances. This is only true for a car that has significant suspension upgrades, enhanced aerodynamics, and REALLY GOOD tires..... Without these upgrades, the gain tend to be alomst unmeasurable, especially on newer generations of ABS / Trac control systems.

 

[Adjuster]

I'm with Andy on this. I challange anyone who thinks they have the skills to outbrake my Supra with it's stock ABS system controlling the much larger brakes on my car.

All the hoopla about being able to out modulate your brakes better than a computer is PURE BULLSHIT. (Sorry to the guy above me post wise, but your perpetuating the myth that somehow anyone can brake better than a good ABS system, and I want to end the bullshit.)

Do you know why F1 cars do not have ABS brakes and traction control? Because it made the cars so easy to drive fast, it was starting to get too dangerous.
A driver needed only to mash the brakes, and the car would brake at the threshold every time, stop after stop. Same goes with traction control, and active suspensions. The cars were getting to the point where they almost could drive themselves. (This was in the late 80's IIRC.)

Now, the guy above me is right, the systems are designed to modulate the brakes to either eliminate, or control the wheel rotation based on a math calculation of how fast that wheel is slowing down. Many systems allow some sliding action of the wheel, especially on the new ones in AWD, or 4x4 pickups and SUV's. (Works better in ice or on sand/dirt.) Our older three channel system seems to work fine with larger wheels, and much stickier tires than it came with new.

On the MK3 Supra, there were two different ABS systems, but they both were three channel from what I've seen. The rear sensor is reading the output shaft of the transmission, and thus calculates the rear wheel rotation and decleration from that data. The front right and left sensors are in each knuckle, and can be modulated individualy. (While the rear brakes are modulated together.)

The only improvement would be a true 4 channel system where the rears modulate seperately, but I've not noticed any problem with what we have actually. (And as Andy posted above, his heavy by about a thousand pounds Supra will out stop a lighter car with excellent brakes because you do not lose time, and distance to sliding a tire, then waiting for it the spin again, then clamping down to slow that wheel/tire down again while trying to modulate it not coming to a complete stop again, and sliding again...)

So try this.

At 60mph, the car is going about 88 feet per second.
When Andy and his buddy hit the brakes, all 8 contact patches on the two vehicles come into play. The inertia of the cars is being turned into heat by the brakes, and either car has the ability to completely stop all 8 wheels, sliding all 8 contact patches if they apply full brake pressure.

Reality is, you LOSE distance by sliding your tires. When the contact patch slides, the effect lowers the amount of available friction. The tire compound is being melted by the friction, and it actually slides easy when it's melting v/s being held tightly against the tarmac, and the compound is rolling/biting into the tarmac v/s sliding over it on a layer of melted goo..

Every one of the flat spots that Andy talked about is when the non ABS brakes locked up a tire, it slid, then had to be backed off, or modulated, and then allowed to spin back up, then be modulated again... This takes time, and as I pointed out above, time is distance at 60mph... about 88 feet per second... Figure the best driver in the world can modulate perhaps a few times a second... Your old ABS system in the supra is capable of modulating more than 10 times per second... and no complete lockup, so your modulating a better/higher friction contact patch too... Every slip adds distance to the non ABS car...

So ABS allows your brakes to slow down your tires without completely locking them up, keeping your contact patches at, or near the limit of friction based on math calculations.. yadda yadda yadda... BUT THEY DO NOT SKID. All the available traction is being used that your car is capable of. Is there some small % of traction that might be gained if we could fine tune this? Sure, but WHO CARES! (This is the amount the guy before me was talking about, and why some people think they are faster than a computer, even with generalized math data being used, in a system designed to operate pretty basicly.)

On the non ABS car, every time it slides/locks, you back off your foot pressure, the wheel un-locks and you modulate your pressure again to slow down the car... meanwhile, the ABS equipped car is still just slowing down without the lockup problems... You just lost ground...(As Andy pointed out, his Supra outbrakes a lighter car, time after time with ABS doing the modulation v/s his friend who is a good driver, who's wiping out a set of very sticky race tires in the process....)


Still think ABS sucks?
Too heavy? LOL It's perhaps 20lbs of total weight for the actuator and computer and the 3 sensors and their wires...

Tell you what. I'll throw 100lbs extra into my car, and still outbrake your "lighter" Supra any day of the week if it has no ABS. (But you have to deal with your own flatspotted tires after we are done.. )

 

[dansmith11]

yup, i had the same attitude that ABS was dumb, until i talked to some race drivers, and actually drove a car with ABS.

you can tell your on the threshold of braking from the feel,and the sound of the tires. haha thats why i roll my windows down sometimes on the track, love that sound. from the feel and sound of it, you just know your on the threshold, a professional driver MIGHT be able to push the threshold ever so slightly further, MAYBE gain a foot or two in a 60-0 stop test. but i doubt it. and if your not a professional driver, you have no chance of out performing an ABS system.

o and i should also throw out there, that i think my ABS actually works BETTER with andys brakes then it did with stock brakes, i read a bunch of junk about changing tire compounds/calipers/pads etc. and how it can mess up the ABS operation becuase the computer is expecting certain pressures and friction levels and what not, but with my stock brakes, the few times i was actually able to get enough braking force to kick in ABS, it always felt kinda rough, youd feel the ABS kick back on the pedal almost and it would back off the braking, then struggle to get back to the threshold, then repeat.

with these things, it just works. whenever your on the brakes hard, your always on the very edge of traction/braking threshold. its a beautiful thing.

 

[arz]

o and i should also throw out there, that i think my ABS actually works BETTER with andys brakes then it did with stock brakes, i read a bunch of junk about changing tire compounds/calipers/pads etc. and how it can mess up the ABS operation becuase the computer is expecting certain pressures and friction levels and what not, but with my stock brakes, the few times i was actually able to get enough braking force to kick in ABS, it always felt kinda rough, youd feel the ABS kick back on the pedal almost and it would back off the braking, then struggle to get back to the threshold, then repeat.

with these things, it just works. whenever your on the brakes hard, your always on the very edge of traction/braking threshold. its a beautiful thing.

I think the exact same thing. I think the whole ABS system works better with my brakes because the ABS dosent have as much hysteresis induced by the caliper body flexing, the floating caliper sliders moving and the brake lines expanding. All these things happen with each system and with each cycle of the ABS and the fact that the calipers are hard mounted and all of the other components are much more robust, make the ABS feel much more positive.

I have resisted telling people that the ABS will work better, because Im really not sure they will believe me, I am a bit biased. :icon_cool

 

[cjsupra90]

I think the exact same thing. I think the whole ABS system works better with my brakes because the ABS dosent have as much hysteresis induced by the caliper body flexing, the floating caliper sliders moving and the brake lines expanding. All these things happen with each system and with each cycle of the ABS and the fact that the calipers are hard mounted and all of the other components are much more robust, make the ABS feel much more positive.

I have resisted telling people that the ABS will work better, because Im really not sure they will believe me, I am a bit biased. :icon_cool

Hard mounting vs. floating will not make any differance. In reality, floating is better. This is why most any professional race car be it F1, GT catagories, INDY, ect... use floating disk's do to caliper being hard mounted. As for flex, have you ever measured the flex of the stock cast iron caliper? The lines are pretty much the only thing that would show bennifet.

I am not putting down you break kit in any way, but making the ABS work better, not truely; the entire braking system as a whole, yes. One thing to always remember is that the brakes and or braking system do not stop your car, tires do.

As for the ABS system, for a street driven car with street tires, KEEP IT!!!!
Race car with slicks and what not, get rid of it and dont think that your street car is a race car and get rid of it cause its not a race car. Anyone who thinks that I am wrong here about the race car and tires part, Go get some race tires and do stops with and without the ABS on your car and with the tires up to temp and you will see for yourself that the non ABS tests will be better. Putting two cars side by side is not a fair test unless they are the same weight and same weight distrabution, have the same wheels and tires, same exact suspension setup and settings, and the same driver

 

[arz]

Hard mounting vs. floating will not make any differance. In reality, floating is better. This is why most any professional race car be it F1, GT catagories, INDY, ect... use floating disk's do to caliper being hard mounted. As for flex, have you ever measured the flex of the stock cast iron caliper? The lines are pretty much the only thing that would show bennifet.

We are talking about a factory MKIII Supra Caliper vs. the AZP Wilwood brake kit. Your right the piston volume, the swept area of the rotor, the rotor diameter, the caliper design and the ridgity of the caliper body have nothing to do with it. The MKIII Supra has a floating caliper these caliper mechanisms surely have more play when compared to the hard mounted Wilwood caliper. This caliper surely flexes more than the closed bridge design of the Wilwood Caliper, (no I haven't measured it, but you can bet I will when I get a chance) I realize this is an exercise in futility and wont convince anyone of anything, but now I want to know because I have witnessed the flex of a stock caliper myself, it is very noticeable. The floating caliper and the pads floating in the caliper body and the flex of the stock caliper surely contribute to some degradation of the ABS performance. What does the floating ROTOR on an Indy car have to do with the floating CALIPER of the stock MKIII?

I am not putting down you break kit in any way, but making the ABS work better, not truely; the entire braking system as a whole, yes. One thing to always remember is that the brakes and or braking system do not stop your car, tires do.

Your arguing this to people that actually race their cars on the track with race tires that have used both the factory brakes and my Wilwood brake kit. In this scenario the factory brakes have exceeded their capacity with race tires and the brakes required upgrading. Re-read your quote, in this sentence, Im not exactly sure what you are trying to say here or if you are saying anything we don't already know.

As for the ABS system, for a street driven car with street tires, KEEP IT!!!!
Race car with slicks and what not, get rid of it and don't think that your street car is a race car and get rid of it cause its not a race car. Anyone who thinks that I am wrong here about the race car and tires part, Go get some race tires and do stops with and without the ABS on your car and with the tires up to temp and you will see for yourself that the non ABS tests will be better. Putting two cars side by side is not a fair test unless they are the same weight and same weight distrabution, have the same wheels and tires, same exact suspension setup and settings, and the same driver

We are not arguing the stock MKIII vs. an all out race car. What we are saying here is that the stock ABS in the MKIII is so nice that it doesn't activate until you have actually LOST traction or LOCKED up a tire and that it is very very near EXACTLY what you want out of a braking system in a race prepared or daily driven car.

You are trying to argue something to at least 3 people that have tried it both ways, (on their MKIII's) with and without stock brakes, and all of us agree, racing or not,

KEEP YOUR ABS!!!