EMS: Stinger vs MegaSquirt vs AEM vs ?

[dejacky]

Since I want to go stand alone EMS soon, I'd like to get some input from some of you more experienced folks. It seems like there is a lot of EMS options out there, so with everyones help, I want to get the one that is right for me.

Costs
Megasquirt II v3: $410 (lifetime warranty, map sensor, & completely assembled)
Stinger: $950 (map sensor)
AEM EMS: ~$1,200 (needs sensors)
Any other recommend MAP-conversion EMS's?

I've seen several tuners use the knock sensing feedback control on the AEM EMS (auto retards timing if it sees certain amount of knock to prevent detonation) equipped 2JZ cars. I've seen this become quite useful when doing pump gas street tunes on turbo'd 2JZ-GE distributor based cars. Megasquirt and AEM both have knock feedback control, but Stinger EMS does not have it. Since the Stinger EMS (being sold by bigaaron from driftmotion) does not use a knock sensor, what other tuning parameters are we supposed to use to safely maximize power on pump gas tunes?

The updated Megasquirt 2 can also control vvti now, so that's a plus. AEM also has traction control + automatic transmission control and I'm pretty sure Megasquirt and Stinger ems lack these features. Since my 2JZ-GE car is a manual transmission, which EMS do you recommend that is best bang/buck for me?

 

[ma71supraturbo]

The AEM EMS doesn't "need" any sensors -- you could run off your stock stuff, its just that most prefer to go map based...

 

[dejacky]

The AEM EMS doesn't "need" any sensors -- you could run off your stock stuff, its just that most prefer to go map based...

Not even an IAT sensor?

 

[ma71supraturbo]

They're designed to plug into the factory wiring harness and be tuned... Maybe the NA MKIV application is different, but I doubt it. Just in case, check out the Supraforums NA section..

 

[HIDPLANET]

Talk to Aaron about the DriftMotion standalone for an outstanding price.

 

[MKIIINA]

if your car has vvti have fun. its a nightmare from what ive seen and heard.

i think you'd be happy with any of the above choices.

 

[dejacky]

if your car has vvti have fun. its a nightmare from what ive seen and heard.

i think you'd be happy with any of the above choices.

Are you saying it's a nightmare tuning vvti in general or are there specific EMS's that you know were a nightmare to tune on vvti engines?

 

[Evilempire1.3JZ-GTE]

VVTI is extremely expensive and complicated to tune if you have deep pockets dont worry though. Most every day tuners stay away from it so if you decide to buy an engine and dont have deep pockets dont go vvti unless you leave it 95% stock.

hmm no one mentioned motec ems its pretty good also there is TEC³ by electromotive
BTW do not get HKS unless you have a friend certified to tune or if your rich and can aford to pay some guy to tune your car couple 100per hr and you need to hope there is an HKS certified tunner in your town.

I have heard for the 1jz crowd AEM is plug and play and the best!

 

[ma71supraturbo]

I've been out of the EMS loop for about a year now, so things may have changed. But it was my understanding that few (if any) people were running the AEM EMS with the 2jz-ge VVTi. That said, the VVTi 2jz engine is pretty rare in North America (I believe it was on 1998 NA's only).



I can't give any details about the other systems -- I can only speak from personal experience with the AEM on my '87t 7mgte. I did tune it myself (which was nice as it saved quite of bit of money). But there definitely a learning curve. The process was a pretty frustrating at first, but very rewarding once I started to get the hang of the software. The MK3 documentation at the time was not particularly detailed, so I often felt a little lost. Thankfully the AEM forums generally were up and I could find other helpful folks to push me through the tough spots (but patience is required). I sold the car before I got bored enough to set up the traction control, the 2-step, or the gear-dependent boost control etc. There were tons of features that would have been "nifty" but I just didn't feel like investing the time. Still, it was nice to know they were there.


My thoughts on knock control: I personally did not bother setting up knock control since I ran a very conservative tune (and knock control is retro-active -- it only reacts once there is knock). I certainly would not rely on knock control to keep your engine happy if you're running on a race gas tune with pump gas... Additionally, the readings I got from my 7m-gte's knock sensors were always pretty dirty (so I'd be afraid of false knock readings)...





AEM pros:

"plug and play." It is designed to plug into your vehicle's wiring harness (This is also very nice come smog time if you want to quickly go back to stock).
Just about every tuner shop has experience with the AEM ems
Has plenty of extra imputs available (for add-on sensors)
Can run cheap GM sensors (often available from junkyards -- but also cheap new)
I was able to sell my EBC and make some money back by running the gm boost control solenoid instead...




Cons:
Some people have had some issues with the 7m ignition setup (never heard this complaint about the 2jz)
The system is more expensive than some of the competitors (almost all of the cheaper ones have fewer options or involve more DIY work)

 

[bigaaron]

From what I have gathered out of talking to several people who do dyno tuning for a living and a few people who have built 8-9 sec 4cyl cars and some supra guys who run standalones, the knock sensing is not really something you can rely on. The point at which you are making maximum power, and the ecu is not retarding the timing based off of the knock sensors, is a very fine line.
The biggest hurdle is first figuring out when the engine is knocking and getting the ecu to see it as such. Then like ma71supraturbo said, once it detects knock, it is already knocking!

Toyota probably spent a whole lot of time and money designing the knock sensing circuit on each individual engine just to get a system that usually works as long as all the stock parameters stay exactly the same, and even then you can still melt a piston if something goes wrong with fuel delivery or air flow sensing. There are a whole lot more things that can cause engine damage other then knock. Also, just because the a/f is under 12:1 does not mean it will not knock. Knock is pre-ignition, and that has as much to do with the amount of fuel as it does with the octane of the fuel and the amount of boost you run, among other things.

A little good reading on this subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_knocking

Now then, as for the other options in standalones out there, they all have their merits. The AEM is very popular, and the Megasquirt had a grassroots following that is growing now that the kits are pre-assembled. The reason we liked the Stinger was because it has nice software, most popular features are included, and it's fairly easy to install and tune.*

(*compared to other standalones)

The biggest thing about a standalone (and the reason I put a disclaimer in my for sale thread), is that if you buy any of them the installation is just one small part of the job. The tuning is complicated, and if everything is not totally right on the hardware aspects, the software can not be tuned correctly regardless of how many hours of dyno time you pay for. Street tuning might be something possible on a piggyback, but that is only because the basemaps are already fairly close in the stock ecu. You can't tune several hundred possible timing points with a butt dyno on the street, same goes for the fuel maps. If you know someone with the EXACT same setup as you and you can get their base map then you are in the ballpark, although dyno tuning is still required.

Some people will tell you that if you always stay at a specific a/f ratio under boost that you will be fine. That is not always true. People who know dyno tuning will tell you that every engine wants something different. They read the dyno graphs and give the engine what the engine says it wants, and they use the dyno graphs, listen to the engine and turbo, and watch the exhaust output to make sure they are going in the right direction with each adjustment. If you talk to an old-school tuner and tell him you want to tune based solely off of what your wideband says he will say you are crazy. The wideband doesn't even sense the air/fuel mixture, it measures oxygen levels in the exhaust and estimates the air/fuel ratio. It you were to run closed loop based off of an o2 sensor all the time, what happens when the sensor fails? (and they can and do fail) :dunno:

 

[figgie]

ahh good to see that I am not the only one that thinks knock sensing is an oxymoron. That is exactly like saying "bomb explosion" detection....... gee the bomb most go off for it to be detected. :dunno:

I run a motec. It has knock detection capabilities but to use it one must capture the knock signature. Toyota goes through countless engines from a certain engine family to get that signature. Somehow I doubt AEM, Megasquirt and all those EMS chew engines up to get a specific signature. General is more like it and for that, nothing is better than something.

 

[supra87t/t4]

nothing is better than something.

------

Anyone seen heard anything about the new AEM "fuel and ignition controller"?
http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory.aspx?CategoryID=116

Seems more along the lines of the Emanage. Keeps your stock ECU in place and lets you adjust both the inputs and outputs.

Based on the one small thread about it on the AEM forums (man is that place quiet) it's intended for applications like this.

Glen

 

[bobiseverywhere]

as far as i understand the HKS V-Pro EMS also is a plug and play affair right into the stock harness. There are shops that have Mas for the 1JZ. I think they also have them for the 7M. Places make a jumper harness. To really make it strait plug and play

I am unsure of the cost though. i also don't know much about the abilities

But i can say for myself that something that requires a bit less crazy wiring and more expensive sensor all over the place. The happier i am. I like the idea of a EMS that will work strait off the OEM harness and you don't loose any originally functionality

 

[figgie]

------

Anyone seen heard anything about the new AEM "fuel and ignition controller"?
http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory.aspx?CategoryID=116

Seems more along the lines of the Emanage. Keeps your stock ECU in place and lets you adjust both the inputs and outputs.

Based on the one small thread about it on the AEM forums (man is that place quiet) it's intended for applications like this.

Glen

Don't be confused.

I meant what I said... When it comes to knock. I rather have nothing than a half ass attempt at knock retarding... hence my use of the Bomb explosion detector

 

[yaitsme]

... I am unsure of the cost though ...

That "HKS" in the name is never a good sign, when considering price!

... General is more like it - and for that, "nothing" is better than "something" ...

I was with ya on that one!
...does a little more punctuation help? ... prolly not ... nevermind ...
I've been wondering about this stuff, too - was thinking of putting a knock light into the gauge panel project ... it's sounding like a 'shift' light may be a better idea.

... on the AEM forums (man is that place quiet) ...

Sure is! Disappointing, eh?

 

[supra87t/t4]

I was with ya on that one!
...does a little more punctuation help? ... prolly not ... nevermind ...

Actually it wasn't the wording that I was confused about but the logic, I'll take something over nothing anyday. But considering the source my little "smile" was more of an attempt to drive further discussion

Sure is! Disappointing, eh?

I guess that's one way to look at it. Or you could say that before it was full of people with problems and questions and now, not so much. Just like I used to go there allot and now I hardly ever do. Also alot of the knowledge has been transferred from AEM out to the street, back in the day the message boards were about the only way to get info, now there are tuners right down the road who know the product forward and backward.

 

[supra87t/t4]

Not to derail this thread, but come on. You guys make it sound like monitoring the knock sensors implies some kind of closed loop ignition timing control where you let the engine run as much timing as it wants until it knocks, it's NOT, I suppose that's sort of what would happen if you had your timing map set too high, but these things aren't idiot proof. The intention or at least the way I intend to use it is just a backup measure so that if you get a bad tank of gas or something else that lowers the knock limit you have some protection. Isn't that better than nothing?

Maybe you could make the argument that some moron is going to get too aggressive with his tuning and count on the knock control to save him, but he is going to find a way to blow it up anyway, these things aren't made for people like that.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater either, just because AEM offers a feature that you don't want or don't think is developed adequately doesn't mean the rest of the product if flawed, it's not like it's central to how the product functions, if you don't like it don't use it.

Glen

 

[ma71supraturbo]

as far as i understand the HKS V-Pro EMS also is a plug and play affair right into the stock harness. There are shops that have Mas for the 1JZ. I think they also have them for the 7M. Places make a jumper harness. To really make it strait plug and play

I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that the V-pro can only be tuned by someone with an HKS "key" (and that these authorized tuners are only in certain major metropolitan areas). I'm pretty sure the guys at MVP motorsports would know more about it though -- so if you were considering it, give them a call...

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater either, just because AEM offers a feature that you don't want or don't think is developed adequately doesn't mean the rest of the product if flawed,

I don't even think that AEM's knock control is flawed compared to other brands' knock-control. It is just that I wouldn't make a decision to buy an EMS based on whether knock control was offered (so if the stinger doesn't offer knock control, I wouldn't eliminate it as an option)...

 

[Evilempire1.3JZ-GTE]

aem Ignition Control System
Plug & Play Programmable Engine Management System;

Part #: 30-1100
$2,092.10

is this the one a 1jz guy would buy what is the exact product we buy and is it plug and play i plan to go aem

 

[figgie]

Not to derail this thread, but come on. You guys make it sound like monitoring the knock sensors implies some kind of closed loop ignition timing control where you let the engine run as much timing as it wants until it knocks, it's NOT, I suppose that's sort of what would happen if you had your timing map set too high, but these things aren't idiot proof. The intention or at least the way I intend to use it is just a backup measure so that if you get a bad tank of gas or something else that lowers the knock limit you have some protection. Isn't that better than nothing?

Maybe you could make the argument that some moron is going to get too aggressive with his tuning and count on the knock control to save him, but he is going to find a way to blow it up anyway, these things aren't made for people like that.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater either, just because AEM offers a feature that you don't want or don't think is developed adequately doesn't mean the rest of the product if flawed, it's not like it's central to how the product functions, if you don't like it don't use it.

Glen

Knock sensing is CRAP. It is turned off above 4500 rpm, care to take a guess where most power is produced... above 4500 rpm for sure

Bad tank of gas, don't need a knock sensor to tell you have crap gas, as the idle will go to shit if gas is "bad" and anyway, I can not remember the last time I ran into bad........ oh wait I can, back in 91 from a local crap gas station in Miami. Never had "bad" gasoline from Amoco/BP, Exxon, 76 or any other top tier gasoline manufacture.

and who said anything about AEM being crap due to knock sensing or not. Not sure where you brought that up?

the notion of "knock" sensing is just as silly as a "rod bending" detection, "hole in the piston" detection or the best one I can think of, "Car Crash" detection. Sure as hell not a fail safe when the event MUST occur in order for the detection to take place. Amusing to say the least