Disappointing Dyno

[Sam]

To the best of my knowledge they do not at this time employ any licensed mechanics.

Well dude if you ever happen to be passing through Calgary they be sure to message me and we'll meetup for a coffee. Would still love to see your car.

I'll be in the city for the Dream Theater concert in August! I'm not sure if we'll be taking my car thought, it's not a very comfortable passenger vehicle, haha

 

[Flateric]

I'm scrambling to get my car all buttoned up for the upcoming race I'm registered for here on August 3,4 at Race City Speedway. It's called King of the Street. No slicks, no Nitrous.

You should try to make that it'll be fun.

 

[supraman2008]

sorry to here that man and ive been thier before this shop in houston basically fucked up my motor during a aem standalone hook up and tuning..... it feels so bad man cuz you pay them for a good job and they take your money even if they dont know what thier doing.........

 

[Suprapowaz!(2)]

As for Autodream, talking to them further or taking legal action is more effort than I would like to muster. I'm just going to swallow my mistake for going there and forget the $2400.00 I so painstakingly saved up.

I'm with IJ on this one. DO NOT just throw your money away! Have it towed back to their shop at their expense (even if it is any eight hour drive), and have them re-shim it. Document everything they have done and said from start to finish for legal purposes if need be. Hopefully they'll agree to do it right (if they know how) this time around. If not, pursue legal action. Don't be chicken shit.

And for future reference pay by credit card that will protect you in an event that you may be ripped off. That way you can let your CC company know you're having problems with that shop, and do a charge back in case that shop doesn't want to fix the problem. CC company will get your refund if they refuse, or cannot remedy the problem.

Once you hand over your cash.... it's gone! You can request a refund on the labor part of the job, but I seriously doubt you'll get it. He'll probably tell you the check is in the mail, but you'll never get it. Since that shop has an incompetent un-certified mechanic you should be able to build and win a ruling easily. Don't let this issue go. Fight it legally.

 

[Zazzn]

In the Brian Crower cam group buy, Zazzn said that these cams can be simply dropped in without any modifications. Maybe I'll give Brian Crower a call and see what they say.

Drop in, but I believe I said they may need to be shimmed depending on your clearances!

I think what Zazzn means is that you dont need springs and retainers with the 264's. Thats what he means by drop in. But any camshaft you put in your motor besides the ones that came with it should be checked for clearence. When I put my BC shafts in some of them were way off spec.

Exactly.


Ok Sorry for not seeing this earlier Sam... You have a few problems my friend let me try to help you fix them
Here is the list of problems you have.

1. You installed 440's but still have the 1jz map sensor
2. You have Cams not shimmed
3. you are 10.5 A/F which is too rich
4. You are using S-AFC to tune

-440's are adding 20% more fuel when not needed in all areas of your map causing you to be super rich. You need to tune around this and restore the car back values that optimize power. To restore this balance get a 2jz-get map sensor.
-Not having cams shimmed could let a valve sit open or make the valves very noisy and worse case spit a shim. The shop that did the work, are baboons if they didn't check the clearances. YOU COULD have some power loss here but i doubt it.
-10.5 A/F is killing a bunch of HP right on it's own. You should be aiming for 11.3-11.6 for the best safe power.
-S-AFC is a garbage unit as it only scales the map sensor or AFM in the case of the 7m. You should look towards getting an Emanage which can control the injectors directly by pulse width thus allowing fuel to be added the proper way.
-Give me a call if you want me to talk you though this stuff I'll be happy to help you!

-Finally I'd do a compression test to see if the engine is healthy (you may have lower numbers because of the cams) which is normal just as long as all cylinders are the same

-Do a boost leak test on your intercooler pipes by hooking up a compressor and capping one end of the IC pipes. This would cause the laggy turbo response and also the lack of top end power as all the boost is leaked out.

 

[Zazzn]

How much boost?

Cams wont do much with stock twins.

didn't you go form 112 MPH trap to 115 with cams alone form my first gb?

 

[tlo86]

i love mechanics

 

[ReQuieM]

Zazzn; You'll find that the 1 and 2J maps are the same. Its been proven a couple of times on toymods. Thats with JDM 1jz and JDM 2jz maps, I can't say for sure on the USDM 2jz's but I'd assume its the same.

http://www.toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=25904&highlight=1jz+2jz+map

Also something to keep in mind that cams generally move the powerband. More duration the more it moves the power higher in the RPM. Which will add to teh sluggish feel. Also if your engine can't breath enough CFM at the higher rpm, you'll choke the engine. Sumery, you've moved the powerband up and your still using the stock Y and dump which isn't exactly hiflow... I don't wanna be captain obvious here but thats not a great mixture.

Also you definatly don't need 440 with the mods you have. No FMIC, No aftermarket Y or dump. The extra fuel wont be doing you any favours. What PSI are you running as well? If you still have the stock FMIC and you've turned the boost up, your likely overheating the air. Hot air = less oxygen to burn = even worse AF mixture.

It certainly doesn't excuse the shoddy workmanship but you do need to relise that all performance paths have up and down sides. If your not careful you can mix the wrong parts and end up with all down side. If I were you, look at other peoples setups, see their dyno sheets, pick at HP target, then talk to a pro. Some times if you don't have the right knowledge or info your "Home brew" can back fire.

Here's a good resource for JZ dyno graphs with mods listed:
http://www.toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=23314

Good luck, I hope you get it all soughted mate!

 

[Zazzn]

Really? Hrm. Always was under the impression that the 2jz was mapping to 18 psi vs the 1jz which only mapped to 14.7
(yes you'll hit fco at 14 ish) but still once you got around that 5V would be at 18 not 14.7-15ish.

 

[suprace]

who intalled the parts?

 

[Sam]

Zazzn; You'll find that the 1 and 2J maps are the same. Its been proven a couple of times on toymods. Thats with JDM 1jz and JDM 2jz maps, I can't say for sure on the USDM 2jz's but I'd assume its the same.

http://www.toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=25904&highlight=1jz+2jz+map

Also something to keep in mind that cams generally move the powerband. More duration the more it moves the power higher in the RPM. Which will add to teh sluggish feel. Also if your engine can't breath enough CFM at the higher rpm, you'll choke the engine. Sumery, you've moved the powerband up and your still using the stock Y and dump which isn't exactly hiflow... I don't wanna be captain obvious here but thats not a great mixture.

Also you definatly don't need 440 with the mods you have. No FMIC, No aftermarket Y or dump. The extra fuel wont be doing you any favours. What PSI are you running as well? If you still have the stock FMIC and you've turned the boost up, your likely overheating the air. Hot air = less oxygen to burn = even worse AF mixture.

It certainly doesn't excuse the shoddy workmanship but you do need to relise that all performance paths have up and down sides. If your not careful you can mix the wrong parts and end up with all down side. If I were you, look at other peoples setups, see their dyno sheets, pick at HP target, then talk to a pro. Some times if you don't have the right knowledge or info your "Home brew" can back fire.

Here's a good resource for JZ dyno graphs with mods listed:
http://www.toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=23314

Good luck, I hope you get it all soughted mate!

I actually ordered a FMIC kit from Driftmotion the other day along with two HKS timing gears, so perhaps that'll help a bit. (And my fuel pump died today, so I guess I'll be getting a Walbro 255)

And I run 15 PSI usually.

 

[Sam]

(Ok, this was supposed to be in the previous post...not sure what happened...)

Also, if the Apexi SAFC II is not that good, I'd probably sell my Blitz Access ECU and SAFC and get a full stand alone. Is the Apexi Power FC any good?

 

[Turbo Drifter]

(Ok, this was supposed to be in the previous post...not sure what happened...)

Also, if the Apexi SAFC II is not that good, I'd probably sell my Blitz Access ECU and SAFC and get a full stand alone. Is the Apexi Power FC any good?

I made good power on my Blitz ECU and S-AFC, I would not go full standalone yet. Stick with what you have, get the cams set up right install the I/C and try again.

You also need to remember the dyno is a tuning tool and they all read different. I'm surprised to see that on the dyno graph they only revved to 6500RPM and the HP was still going up there too. Do as I said earlier get what you have working well add the I/C and retune.

On my stock twins I was able to make 318whp and 319ft/lbs with a Divorced y pipe (the one that was used to make the knocked off one in china) HKS I/C 440cc inj S-AFC and Blitz ECU. I was running 18psi to do that though as well.

 

[ReQuieM]

Sam, the FMIC and the cam gears will help out. I think that, seeing as you want to follow your own path of modifying, you could really benefit from some additional knowledge and understanding. Understanding the why will give you the how, and prevent another disappointing result. I'm not going to spoon feed you but heres a tid bit:

In this instance, think of your engine as a pump (which it is), you want it to pump better. Logically, the first best and easiest ways of doing that is making sure you have the least restriction on the supply feed and the waste removal. So the pump can do what it does the best it can. A pump can only preform as good as it can get the substance in and propel it out. Once the pump is performing at its best, free of any restriction, you turn your attention to making the pump itself more efficient. Making the pump more efficient wont help much if at all (infact it may hurt the output) if its still trying to pull and push through the same holes.

Think of it like this, three dudes run 5 miles, two ave joes and one fit. one of the joes and the fit guy can only breath through a straw. The other ave joe can breath as normal. Which do you think will win? the average joe that can breath normaly of course. The joe with a straw is the standard 1J, the ave joe without the straw is a full bpu 1J (filter, dumps, zorst, fmic etc) and the fit guy with the straw is your engine.

I think to many people just do without enough knowledge or what they are really doing. Heres some home work, how does cam lobe duration and overlap effect your engine?

Anyway I'm done rambling, I hope that helps at least a little.

 

[ReQuieM]

PS there is nothing wrong with using a SAFC, for your level or modding its probably the best bang for buck tuning aid bar the emange blue (which we can get second hand in australia at least, for not a lot more). You purely need to get all areas of your setup into BPU spec. The engine will really come to life then

 

[OneJSupra]

Really? Hrm. Always was under the impression that the 2jz was mapping to 18 psi vs the 1jz which only mapped to 14.7
(yes you'll hit fco at 14 ish) but still once you got around that 5V would be at 18 not 14.7-15ish.

I ran 22psi (no boost cut) with 1jz map, aristo ecu and safc. Was gonna buy the 2j map then after more research found out it's the same as 1j.

Yeah it's a myth...

 

[Sam]

I'm aware of how restrictive the stock 1JZ fuel delivery, intake, and exhaust system is. I still appreciate the explanation, Requiem.

I was going to get a y-pipe, but then decided to go single. I don't quite have enough for that just yet, so I suppose in the 6 months-year it takes me to save up, I suppose I could get a good y-pipe for the stock turbos. Might as well since now I have the full intercooler kit. My vehicle will be losing the "straw," Requiem, haha.

Anyone have a good used one I could have? Perhaps I'll take a look on ebay...I don't want to spend a ton of money since now I don't have any. I guess I'll make a thread for one in the parts wanted area.

 

[Zazzn]

I ran 22psi (no boost cut) with 1jz map, aristo ecu and safc. Was gonna buy the 2j map then after more research found out it's the same as 1j.

Yeah it's a myth...

Ok, cool! I always though there was a difference.

Now for S-AFC, it will work yes but it's POS IMO. WHY? Let me start... As I said before it scales the signal. This is LESS then IDEAL because while it scales back the Map sensor signal it also scales you back to a different timing / fueling curve. So, in a sense working against you by removing too much timing or adding it depending on how you scale with injectors.

Will s-afc work... yes.... I was able to do 450 WHP on my 7m with a S-AFC and a FPR/walbro. The trick is you need to jack up the Fuel pressure to make the car over rich then pull signal form the S-AFC to scale you down to a proper A/F while not hitting FCO... A HORRIBLE approach of fixing this problem though.

Used Emanage blue's can be had for 150-250$ and that is the price for a S-AFC.

Emanage blue gives you
-Timing control
-Idle correction
-Additional injector control
-direct fuel injector control for adding pulse width
-MAP calmping
-Map extending
-Air flow/map signal manipulation

WHY in gods name would you want the s-afc which only gives you signal manipulation?

IMO S-AFC/S-AFR and all them signal manumission jobbies are the same GARBAGE.

You don't have to agree with me but I've had the S-AFC gen 1/2 (old school knob ones then digital), S-AFR, Emanage blue and played with FCD and a few other jobbies out there.

If you can't get the emanage for the price of a s-afc, and you are tight on funds the S-AFC would work... but since SAM isn't that tight on funds. spent a good penny already E-manage is the way to go.

How could you even dispute this?


SAM - You have ignored 2 of the most important things in this thread.


- Do a compression test
- Do a boost leak test
- While you are at it replace your plugs with NGK BCPR7ES's (copper's) made 240HP - 647 on these cheap copper plugs. 240 on my volvo 647 on my mk3 that is if you don't already have good plugs... No quad tip bosh plugs!

 

[Sam]

Used Emanage blue's can be had for 150-250$ and that is the price for a S-AFC.

Emanage blue gives you
-Timing control
-Idle correction
-Additional injector control
-direct fuel injector control for adding pulse width
-MAP calmping
-Map extending
-Air flow/map signal manipulation

If you can't get the emanage for the price of a s-afc, and you are tight on funds the S-AFC would work... but since SAM isn't that tight on funds. spent a good penny already E-manage is the way to go.

SAM - You have ignored 2 of the most important things in this thread.

- Do a compression test
- Do a boost leak test
- While you are at it replace your plugs with NGK BCPR7ES's (copper's) made 240HP - 647 on these cheap copper plugs. 240 on my volvo 647 on my mk3 that is if you don't already have good plugs... No quad tip bosh plugs!

Is E-manage blue a full standalone that replaces the 1JZ ECU completely? Is it easy to get harnesses for them? I was thinking about the Apexi PowerFC, I presume that has similar features the the E-manage blue. And believe it or not, I am out of money at the moment.

Yes, you are correct, I have not conducted a compression test. When I get my fuel pump and my vehicle runs again, I will do one and post my results. This may be a couple of weeks from now.

And as for the boost leak, how would I even go about detecting it if there is one? I regularly check the clamps on the old intake piping and look for cracks in the rubber bends. However, as I stated before, I'll be replacing all of the intake piping and the intercooler soon.

My spark plugs are fairly new. I replaced them last year. I don't recall exactly what I bought, but I believe they were NGK 6076 copper and I gapped them to 0.028".

 

[ReQuieM]

No probs sam, most people 'know' most of this shit but just don't comprehend it. Just one of those things. I'll have my split Y with divorced wastegate dumps up for sale soonish but then, 'cos they are about the best you can get (costly) I'll be after a decent amount for them and postage to the USA would be a B-to the muthafkn-yatch It takes even the most hardcore a little while to save the coin for turbo swaps. Take your time research your shit and don't skrimp and you'll be all the better for it. With a better end result too.

Zazzn; not sure if "How could you even dispute this?" this was directed at me or just at the void in general, but if you check I said "...bar the emange blue". As in I agree, if you can get the emanage at a comparitable price then do it! I think you are a little hard on the SAFC tho, it's still a very usefully BPU tool. Cheap, easy to tune (saving more cash on dyno time etc) and most importantly it still gets results.

Sure its got a Fk load of downsides but sometimes its all you need. I run a PFC on the supra, but I'm planing on running just a SAFC on my Aristo just to get a bit of extra fuel ecconomy and a few extra berries. Hell a mate of mine picked up 20RWKW (about 30rwhp) just from adjusting his FCD (one point fuel adjustment! lol) to a sweet spot!

The blue is also STILL just a piggy back too, I don't know enough about the way they interact with the ecu (BAR that the stock ecu has full control of the cold start etc), but there is a pretty good chance that SOME of its features don't fully take control of the engine, but merely fool the stock ECU into telling the engine to do what you want it to. Does this make it shit? Should he just go for a AEM or microtech? Hell no! lol but you catch my drift tho I hope I'd never run a SAFC in the supra (mainly because I plan way to far ahead and have delusions of grandure ) But I will for my daily BPU

Whats the problem with the Quad tips btw? I'm just running good old copperies gapped to .7mm (IIRC) but I had thougth about a multi tip as the GF's car runs a three pointer with the brightest spark you've seen! Looks really good.

And yup, make sure your shits running right first sam

I'm just conversational BTW, no hardies ok Its friday afternoon here! WHOO!