DECELERATION - Clutch ENGAGED or NOT?

IJ.

Grumpy Old Man
Mar 30, 2005
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I come from a land down under
Heel/Toe is you blip the throttle between shifts to rev match taking some of the load off the synchro's in the trans.

Done correctly you can shift without the clutch up and down but it takes some practice, I've had to drive cars this way in the past after clutch failures.
 

Poodles

I play with fire
Jul 22, 2006
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Fort Worth, TX
Heel/toe is only required in corners, it's mainly to stop the sudden deceleration of the rear wheels from just dropping the gear. I have no idea how you guys are doing it in the supra since the gas pedal is so mcuh farther back than the brake...
 

supra90turbo

shaeff is FTMFW!
Mar 30, 2005
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Downshift, definitely. I'm so off-put when I drive an Auto... no control to downshift and doing so manually is usually too harsh...

That said, I rarely, RARELY, use the clutch. Basically slip in traffic and when starting. Once the car is going ~5mph, I generally don't use the clutch to shift unless I'm accelerating fast engaging in a bit of "spirited" driving.

Once you become in tune with your car, you know when you can slide it into gear without the clutch. A small tap on the throttle will stabilize the RPM's before knocking it in gear without it being a big production, resulting in bucking and looking like a dork.
 

supradjza80

Mr. Formula SAE
Apr 24, 2007
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Appleton, WI
www.uwracing.com
Poodles;1540888 said:
Heel/toe is only required in corners, it's mainly to stop the sudden deceleration of the rear wheels from just dropping the gear. I have no idea how you guys are doing it in the supra since the gas pedal is so mcuh farther back than the brake...

Its really quite easy, I think our pedals are placed quite well for the heal toe down shift (My Honda CRX SI and Nissan Maxima 5 spd were terrible, my Audi also has good pedal placement). Heel toe is still kind of a misnomer, its more like left side ball of your foot and the right side middle part of your foot doing the brake and gas respectively. Heel toe is also needed when stopping quickly in a straight line as well as the fastest way to slow will be a properly executed heel/toe stop. But in corners or entering corners it is the MOST important for the reasons Poodles listed.
 

Keros

Canadian Bacon
Mar 16, 2007
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Calgary
Poodles;1540888 said:
Heel/toe is only required in corners, it's mainly to stop the sudden deceleration of the rear wheels from just dropping the gear. I have no idea how you guys are doing it in the supra since the gas pedal is so mcuh farther back than the brake...

Like supradjza80 said, the brake may be pretty far infront of the gas, but it's still relatively easy to do in a MkIII. However, you have to actually be ON the brakes to really get a good grip on the brake pedal and still be able to modulate the throttle (i.e. push the brake to make it closer the gas)... this presents some difficulties in coming to a real slow stop, lol. I do practice heel/toe as often as possible, but because of this quirk of the Supra, it's hard to do a nice slow decel and heel/toe down through the gears. Problem is that if you're not hard enough on the brakes, the ball of your foot may slip off the brake when you reach for the gas with the right edge of your right shoe... obviously this could be a fatal mistake, so be cautious and get plenty of practice when it's safe. Drilled pedals with studs would be a nice upgrade... ain't no slipping off that! Obviously this flaw isn't a problem on a track, as that you're burying the brakes for all they're worth when you're using them; not slowing down for soccer moms on their cell phones.

Unless you're doddling down the highway, you never want to shift gears in a corner while driving at the extremes of traction (like on a winter road... or a racetrack). A shift (down or up) could easily make the car swap ends just by pushing in the clutch (before the gear is even changed and power is back on). If the power applied to the backwheels to maintain speed through the corner was keeping the car balanced, pressing the clutch in will cause weight to shift off the back wheels to the front wheels... possibly causing the rear to slide. Note: If the tires are starting to squeal in the corner before you decide to shift, pray to whatever god you believe in when you push the clutch, 'cuz you're goin' for a ride! Obviously putting the power back on after the shift, if you made it through depressing the clutch of course, is just as perilous... There's dozens of other things to be doing while taking a corner, shifting isn't one of them. Do all the braking and shifting before you turn!

The reason a driver does heel/toe shifting is so that s/he can brake and change gears at the same time. Going from 120mph down to 60mph for a turn will require you to drop several gears to stay in your power band, carry your speed through the corner, and then come out of the corner under acceleration on exit... you don't want to brake, shift, brake, shift, then brake some more to get down from 5th to 3rd gear and drop the speed in preparation for the turn-in; you'll want to brake while shifting down and be ready to hold speed to the apex then accelerate. Heel/toe is really the only way to do it without causing undo wear on a transmission (or blowing it all over the track, slush box anyone?). Yeah, you can shift without using the clutch if you're pro, but one mistake at high RPM/high speed and the dog teeth are going to be DONE... just 'cuz you can doesn't mean you should...
 

thedave925

Since 9/16/05
Nov 9, 2005
626
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0
East Bay, Cali
Keros;1540923 said:
Like supradjza80 said, the brake may be pretty far infront of the gas, but it's still relatively easy to do in a MkIII. However, you have to actually be ON the brakes to really get a good grip on the brake pedal and still be able to modulate the throttle (i.e. push the brake to make it closer the gas)... this presents some difficulties in coming to a real slow stop, lol. I do practice heel/toe as often as possible, but because of this quirk of the Supra, it's hard to do a nice slow decel and heel/toe down through the gears. Problem is that if you're not hard enough on the brakes, the ball of your foot may slip off the brake when you reach for the gas with the right edge of your right shoe... obviously this could be a fatal mistake, so be cautious and get plenty of practice when it's safe. Drilled pedals with studs would be a nice upgrade... ain't no slipping off that! Obviously this flaw isn't a problem on a track, as that you're burying the brakes for all they're worth when you're using them; not slowing down for soccer moms on their cell phones.

Unless you're doddling down the highway, you never want to shift gears in a corner while driving at the extremes of traction (like on a winter road... or a racetrack). A shift (down or up) could easily make the car swap ends just by pushing in the clutch (before the gear is even changed and power is back on). If the power applied to the backwheels to maintain speed through the corner was keeping the car balanced, pressing the clutch in will cause weight to shift off the back wheels to the front wheels... possibly causing the rear to slide. Note: If the tires are starting to squeal in the corner before you decide to shift, pray to whatever god you believe in when you push the clutch, 'cuz you're goin' for a ride! Obviously putting the power back on after the shift, if you made it through depressing the clutch of course, is just as perilous... There's dozens of other things to be doing while taking a corner, shifting isn't one of them. Do all the braking and shifting before you turn!

The reason a driver does heel/toe shifting is so that s/he can brake and change gears at the same time. Going from 120mph down to 60mph for a turn will require you to drop several gears to stay in your power band, carry your speed through the corner, and then come out of the corner under acceleration on exit... you don't want to brake, shift, brake, shift, then brake some more to get down from 5th to 3rd gear and drop the speed in preparation for the turn-in; you'll want to brake while shifting down and be ready to hold speed to the apex then accelerate. Heel/toe is really the only way to do it without causing undo wear on a transmission (or blowing it all over the track, slush box anyone?). Yeah, you can shift without using the clutch if you're pro, but one mistake at high RPM/high speed and the dog teeth are going to be DONE... just 'cuz you can doesn't mean you should...

To anyone that doesn't already know, R compound tires don't talk as loudly as normal compound tires.
Making R compounds squeal means your on a thinner envelope between having control and going into a slide since they don't change tone as noticeably, if at all before releasing grip.
 

GrimJack

Administrator
Dec 31, 1969
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idriders.com
thedave925;1541176 said:
To anyone that doesn't already know, R compound tires don't talk as loudly as normal compound tires.
Making R compounds squeal means your on a thinner envelope between having control and going into a slide since they don't change tone as noticeably, if at all before releasing grip.

Truth... the Kumho V70a that I'm running now makes ZERO noise, before, during, and after it loses grip entirely.
 

SupaMan

Want The Boooooossttttttt
Oct 12, 2006
1,101
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Cape Coral,Florida
Poodles;1540888 said:
Heel/toe is only required in corners, it's mainly to stop the sudden deceleration of the rear wheels from just dropping the gear. I have no idea how you guys are doing it in the supra since the gas pedal is so mcuh farther back than the brake...

I have big feet.

Edit: Also if it helps, I can only do it barefoot.
 

arknotts

formerly ark86
Jan 9, 2008
461
1
18
Ohio
I always leave it in gear, downshifting as I go (w/ revmatching as much as possible). When coming to a stop, I'll usually take it out of third gear and put it in neutral at ~1000-1500 rpm. Sometimes I'll go down to second if it is a really slow stop. I don't feel my clutch is worn much more at all with proper rev matching. Plus it just doesn't feel right coasting to a stop, and the synchros have much more work to do going from neutral->forward gear than rowing through the gears sequentially.

IJ.;1540862 said:
Heel/Toe is you blip the throttle between shifts to rev match taking some of the load off the synchro's in the trans..

I've always thought rev-matching helped with clutch wear, and had nothing to do with the synchros (clutch is disengaged anyway). Isn't double clutching the only technique that reduces the amount of work for the synchros?