Completed LSx (or 1 or 6 or 7 or...)?
- Thread starter suprabad
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Ma70.Ent said:
yea seems theres alot of chevy vs toyota debates goin on recently...
IJ. said:
im sure theres more out there then i mentioned and or on this forum, and its besides the point, doesn't take "many" 7ms surviving at 550+hp to prove that they can in fact operate reliably at 500+ horsepower. majority of 7m's that fail are either stock and not maintained, not built properly for the elevated power, or fail from a tune/fuel related incident. Mallonyx's 7m was on stock prepped rods and held 550+ horsepower for a good while until a STOCK rod let go. if he had any after market rod it would probably still be going strong today.
What about the chevy 302 wasn't production? was it not a factory production engine in a car available to the public, the camaro z/28? did it not rev to or over 7krpm?
"Reliable" is a very subjective thing Chunks...
Most of the 500+ cars you're talking about see very limited use and not much of that time is at peak power output.
I tend to hammer my car whenever I drive it as that's what it was built for but even so I wouldn't be calling it "reliable", the one thing in it's favour is it's always made it home under it's own power no matter how badly I've broken it.
A 6.0L motor is going to be far less stressed making it's 600 than a 3.0L and this is at the expense of longevity.
Most of the 500+ cars you're talking about see very limited use and not much of that time is at peak power output.
I tend to hammer my car whenever I drive it as that's what it was built for but even so I wouldn't be calling it "reliable", the one thing in it's favour is it's always made it home under it's own power no matter how badly I've broken it.
A 6.0L motor is going to be far less stressed making it's 600 than a 3.0L and this is at the expense of longevity.
IJ. said:
True but an 6.0l engine making 600 horsepower in a street car will see that same time at peak output as a 7m making 600 horsepower sharing the same driver. Depends greatly on driver, but i still don't see 5-600 horsepower being a problem for a properly built and maintained 7m/jz engine
Though i dont think you would ever call anything on your car reliable, you always seem to find a way to break it lol.
nosechunks said:
Assume we had two Supra's, one with a 500 hp LSX and one with a 500 hp 7m.
Let's say both of them are well assembled, both with high quality parts, and meticulous attention to detail by someone who knows what they are doing.
All this being equal, the LSX motor is going to be more reliable and last longer, if for no other reason than the LSX will not be turbo charged.
Consequently the LSX will not be subjected to the stresses that a turbo (or any kind of charged intake for that matter) will create.
Not to mention the law of moving parts:
More moving parts = more chance for breakage.
Also, you have to consider no lag, less heat, and power that is evenly dispersed along the entire rpm range.
Chunks: It's not that I don't like 7m's or 1 or 2 JZ's, I do like them. It's just hard to compete with newer technology and bigger bore, especially in a heavy car like the Supra.
:icon_bigg
You say more parts equal more parts for breakage, thats against the lsx right? 2 less cylinders, no hydraulic lifters, pushrods, rockers, the only parts a 7m has that the lsx doesn't is one more cam and 8 more valves, but the probability of a valve or cam breaking isn't more then a hydraulic lifter, pushrod or rocker breaking.
A 500horsepower 7m wouldn't have crazy lag, but the lsx would have more area under the curve, BUT a n/a 500 horsepower ls1 wouldn't be as street friendly and smooth as a 500horsepower 7m. and 7m's have 2 more main caps for reliability.
This could go on for days, the bottom line is If there both built right they'll both last as long as you would need either one to last without issues, BUT the 500 horsepower 7m would be cheaper and more reliable for the same money as swapping to an lsx and making the same 500 horsepower..
A 500horsepower 7m wouldn't have crazy lag, but the lsx would have more area under the curve, BUT a n/a 500 horsepower ls1 wouldn't be as street friendly and smooth as a 500horsepower 7m. and 7m's have 2 more main caps for reliability.
This could go on for days, the bottom line is If there both built right they'll both last as long as you would need either one to last without issues, BUT the 500 horsepower 7m would be cheaper and more reliable for the same money as swapping to an lsx and making the same 500 horsepower..
I have an LS6/T56 in my '87 Supra. The swap is very near completion though that says little about the other projects on that car. I need a throttle cable and a driveshaft and I can go drive my Supra. When I made the decision 2 years ago to swap this engine in I did so because of the lack of power my 7M had below 3k, especially when it was hot out. Later after looking further into the swap did I find out the LS6 is lighter than the 7M and parts are generally cheaper and easier to find. Not to mention the aftermarket support for the LSX.
Everytime I talk about my swap I hear people say something like "you should have kept the Toyota engine in there or atleast put a 1UZ in instead". I always tell them if I was interested in the image and not the performance of my car I probably would have. People also like to say I could make the same 500hp out of a 7M. Yes, you can and even more. However what about driveability? Can I run pump gas on that 7M at the 500hp mark even on the hot days? What about torque below 3k RPMs? Modded LS1s generally put out over 300 lb/ft to the wheels below 3k. I saw a magazine article with a twin turbo Viper. It was making over 1000rwhp on pump gas, what can a 7M do no pump gas?
Oh, and to top it off. I can plug my laptop into my OBD2 port and do anything from pull codes to retune my STOCK LSX PCM. Then again, maybe I am un aware of the tuneability of the 7M PCM. I can also R&R my LS6 with trans in about 1.5 hours. Swapping heads on my LS6 would probably take less time. Oh and there is just about no bolt I can't get at with an air tool. If any of you guys work on cars as a profession you will know how awesome that is.
Everytime I talk about my swap I hear people say something like "you should have kept the Toyota engine in there or atleast put a 1UZ in instead". I always tell them if I was interested in the image and not the performance of my car I probably would have. People also like to say I could make the same 500hp out of a 7M. Yes, you can and even more. However what about driveability? Can I run pump gas on that 7M at the 500hp mark even on the hot days? What about torque below 3k RPMs? Modded LS1s generally put out over 300 lb/ft to the wheels below 3k. I saw a magazine article with a twin turbo Viper. It was making over 1000rwhp on pump gas, what can a 7M do no pump gas?
Oh, and to top it off. I can plug my laptop into my OBD2 port and do anything from pull codes to retune my STOCK LSX PCM. Then again, maybe I am un aware of the tuneability of the 7M PCM. I can also R&R my LS6 with trans in about 1.5 hours. Swapping heads on my LS6 would probably take less time. Oh and there is just about no bolt I can't get at with an air tool. If any of you guys work on cars as a profession you will know how awesome that is.
nosechunks said:
If you want to nitpick like that about the number of parts, then you're going to need to count every coupler, IC pipe, hose clamp, vacuum line, etc. That stuff can also break and if it's a turbo or an IC or whatever, it's going to be expensive.
So you're saying a 7m would be more streetable because unless you're beating on it, it would be making stock NA power when driving on the street because of the lag? I'm a little confused at that? So that means that it's better than a car that makes power everywhere? Is that just for people who can't drive or for everyone?
I still don't think a 7m would be more reliable or cheaper. Unless we're talking about different reliables. I said what reliability should mean and that's driving the car to the race track (road course/drift/autox), beating on it all day, not having to touch the motor and then driving it home. Drag racing doesn't count for this because if you're breaking your motor drag racing, then it wouldn't last a lap on a road course.
So reliability with the 7m, they can be reliable, but I don't see it being any cheaper than an LSx. You're list earlier was a little off and when I adjusted some of it, the price would've been the same and that's considering that you're getting ripped off on the LS1 price. So as long as you know how to spend money, you can get an LS1/T56 for about the same as it would cost to properly build a 7m. So the motors cancel each other out. Then you need to add on all the necessary parts, to make the power and keep the motor reliable. And even if they cost the same overall to make the same peak power, it won't be the same power. Peak power doesn't mean anything. I mean a 500hp 7m wouldn't fully spool until what 4k+? So the LSx car will making a lot more power below that and then the 7m will have to try and catch up.
And along with the reliability, the 7m has more failure points. Which doesn't mean that it's less reliable it just means there is more of a chance of each of those parts failing. The LSx also has parts that could fail, but it's not as highly stressed at the same power levels, so the fatigue life of the parts is going to be higher than on a 7m.
Syst, awesome reponse, I'm really happy to see someone making the progress on this setup that you are.
Tim
Those parts would be the same from 7m to ls1 and are not engine related. an IC coupler blowing up isnt a reliability issue with a 7m but any turbo car and good silicone couplers dont blow out very often.Wiisass said:
No i was saying Either engine in a street car will not be making full power at all times. to make 500 horsepower n/a youll need a lumpy cam, headers, heads. its not going to idle as smooth as a turbo car with way less cam overlap, cruising would be smoother, idle would be smoother. i did say area under the curve would be better for low end, but if your rolling down shifting takes care of that and lag isnt that bad even of a really large turbo.Wiisass said:
Again i still dont see why a properly built engine of any make and model would have any issues with reliability.Wiisass said:
i took prices from average places that the average person would get them. YOU might have a good hookup and get everything at a sick price and thats cool but not everyone can, thats why i went with whats readily available on ebay for the engine tranny combo.Wiisass said:
Where are there More failure points in a 7m, it has less cylinders and more mainbearings??? i agree parts in a 6 cylinder are more stressed at same power level of an 8 cylinder, but i still don't see where these extra high stress critical parts are in an engine with less cylinders.Wiisass said:
If you aren't going to count everything associated with a 500hp 7m, then you can't consider it at all. That's like trying to say that the turbo doesn't count and I don't think you'll be able to make 500hp out of a 7mge, so you need to include that stuff.
And I don't think you need the most agressive cams anymore to make good NA power. There seem to be some people making that power and still have a very streetable setup. And I and I'm sure most people on here would rather have a slightly lumpy idle on the street and power all the time, than have NA7m power until the turbo hits. Otherwise, what fun would the car be on the street. It seems your arguing that the slower car would be better on the street and if you stay out of boost everything will be smooth.
You can't consider reliability unless you consider the whole package. The turbo and it's supporting parts are a huge part of the reliability for the 7m. I'm not saying that the supporting parts are unreliable, but there's just more places to fail more things that need to be accounted for, etc. So if you want to just compare the engines themselves, then let's compare an LSx to a 7m-gte without a turbo. Then I know the LSx would kill the 7m on power.
I was talking average prices. Just because what you've seen from a quick search on ebay shows a couple motors going for more than they should doesn't mean that is representative of what the motors go for. And as for 7m rebuilds, I've heard anywhere from 3k to 5k depending on parts used and how much machine work needed to be done. So just for the arguments sake, let's assume that buying the LS1 swap and getting the 7m rebuilt are going to cost the same. Because one person could go and hunt for the best deals on machine work and parts and put everything together himself, but he's also going to be the guy hunting for the deals on the LS1 and putting together everything he needs to as cheap as possible. And then there are people who will take it to the closest place and tell them what they want and just pay whatever they're asking and they would probably do the same if they were getting an LS1.
You need to consider the whole package. I can't keep saying that. Unless you want to compare an NA7m to an NA LSx then you need to consider everything from the filter to the downpipe on both motors. I'm not even going to bring up radiators and oil coolers and stuff like that. Becuase you should be upgrading them on both motors, so it would cancel out. But everything does need to be considered.
And I don't think you need the most agressive cams anymore to make good NA power. There seem to be some people making that power and still have a very streetable setup. And I and I'm sure most people on here would rather have a slightly lumpy idle on the street and power all the time, than have NA7m power until the turbo hits. Otherwise, what fun would the car be on the street. It seems your arguing that the slower car would be better on the street and if you stay out of boost everything will be smooth.
You can't consider reliability unless you consider the whole package. The turbo and it's supporting parts are a huge part of the reliability for the 7m. I'm not saying that the supporting parts are unreliable, but there's just more places to fail more things that need to be accounted for, etc. So if you want to just compare the engines themselves, then let's compare an LSx to a 7m-gte without a turbo. Then I know the LSx would kill the 7m on power.
I was talking average prices. Just because what you've seen from a quick search on ebay shows a couple motors going for more than they should doesn't mean that is representative of what the motors go for. And as for 7m rebuilds, I've heard anywhere from 3k to 5k depending on parts used and how much machine work needed to be done. So just for the arguments sake, let's assume that buying the LS1 swap and getting the 7m rebuilt are going to cost the same. Because one person could go and hunt for the best deals on machine work and parts and put everything together himself, but he's also going to be the guy hunting for the deals on the LS1 and putting together everything he needs to as cheap as possible. And then there are people who will take it to the closest place and tell them what they want and just pay whatever they're asking and they would probably do the same if they were getting an LS1.
You need to consider the whole package. I can't keep saying that. Unless you want to compare an NA7m to an NA LSx then you need to consider everything from the filter to the downpipe on both motors. I'm not even going to bring up radiators and oil coolers and stuff like that. Becuase you should be upgrading them on both motors, so it would cancel out. But everything does need to be considered.
Ok, i'll show you a dyno sheet of a 540hp LS1. Keep in mind these numbers are not to the wheels but to the flywheel. (Dyno graphs are attached)
Baseline Engine: Stock LS-1 Longblock, LS-6 Intake Manifold, 1 3/4"
Headers-Long Tube Style, 3" Flowmaster Mufflers.
VS
All Same As Above WithThe Exception Of: AFR LS-1 "205" CNC Heads, Fast
Intake Manifold, Cam-224/228 @.050 .581 Lift, 78mm Ported Throttle Body.
Static compression ratio is stock for both pulls.
I hardly call that cam "lopey" though it is a little aggressive. A "lopey" cam would be the MS3 that my friend has in his f-body. Those 205cc heads used are good heads but they are by no means the highest flowing heads out there. Now your turn, show a ~550hp 7M dyno graph.
7Ms have 2-bolt mains if I remember right. LSXs have 6 bolt mains. How big are the rod and main journals on a 7M crank? The LSX uses a 2.1" rod journal and 2.56" main journals. So basically the 7M is likely weaker in this comparison as I am pretty sure it's journal sizes are a bit smaller.
Pretty sure you are only saying that because you don't really know how to "properly" build an engine.
Lets compare a 400HP 7M build to my LS6 swap. I have maybe 3k into my LS6 with 5k miles on it including the fully tuneable PCM. Now how much does it cost to build a 400hp 7M with a fully tuneable PCM? I doubt it is much cheaper if at all.
i dont see any sheets or attachments, not that it matters so dont bother anyway, your arguing to argue. i never said it couldnt be done, i actually said it could be. though even you yourself says the cam is a little "aggressive", turbo cams have minimal overlap therefore smoother. i don't know what else your trying to prove. Facts are turbo cams "should be", if degreed in properly, smoother then any actual performance n/a cam. an engineer such as yourself should know that.SySt said:
2-bolt but 2 more, and one piston per throw. seeing as people make 600+ with no more then MAYBE billet mains i dont see your point. you have double the load we do on the same spot on the crank and we have 2 more mains supporting the crank. 2 more mains supporting the crank is much more then having journals "a bit" bigger.SySt said:
Oh yea i forgot, your an engineer AND now a professional engine builder, is there any acronyms i should know before i build any more engines? A properly Built engine is just that, an engine built/assembled with parts that can properly handle the power and rpm desired. If the parts in the engine can handle the power and rpm how are they unreliable? Stock, yes i agree a stock 7m at 500 horsepower is unreliable because its a guessing game at when it will let go.SySt said:
SySt said:
Congrats, you got good deals and did alot of work yourself, those engineering and engine building skills were put to good use saving you money. Weve been threw the prices, and a fully tunable PCM is not necessary at 400 horsepower. Does that 3k include cost of engine? if it does you got some very good deals.
Wiisass: i was accounting for everything, but intercooler pipes are not usually a problem at all, neither is reliability with turbos, semis use turbos and go millions of miles without big issues.
Also never said you need a really nasty cam, i said lumpy, i ment mild. regardless any performance cam will make a v8 not be as smooth as a turbo I6 with properly degreed in cams, or even stock for that mater. and turbo lag is not that bad. unless you have like a gt45, its not bad at all, i dont know where you get this idea you need to wait a few days to go fast.
Those prices on motors have been that way for a while, at least since the past summer, i was looking into making a rail dragster type vehicle with an ls1 actually and the prices were the same. and i can not see an engine rebuild costing 5 grand unless your having everything blueprinted, balanced, ported, polished and totally assembled by the machine shop. or putting in some of those one-off titanium rods duane has lol.
Everything considered i still cant see why a properly built and maintained engine wouldn't be reliable be it a ls1 ls24 7m 9m 26m 47jz 52.25jz whatever. properly built for the power level shouldn't have a problem.
Also never said you need a really nasty cam, i said lumpy, i ment mild. regardless any performance cam will make a v8 not be as smooth as a turbo I6 with properly degreed in cams, or even stock for that mater. and turbo lag is not that bad. unless you have like a gt45, its not bad at all, i dont know where you get this idea you need to wait a few days to go fast.
Those prices on motors have been that way for a while, at least since the past summer, i was looking into making a rail dragster type vehicle with an ls1 actually and the prices were the same. and i can not see an engine rebuild costing 5 grand unless your having everything blueprinted, balanced, ported, polished and totally assembled by the machine shop. or putting in some of those one-off titanium rods duane has lol.
Everything considered i still cant see why a properly built and maintained engine wouldn't be reliable be it a ls1 ls24 7m 9m 26m 47jz 52.25jz whatever. properly built for the power level shouldn't have a problem.
The 3k IS the cost of the engine + ECU. I do know a guy at a GM performance shop where I purchased the shortblock. However it was 2k and was not much of a "great" deal. There is no money spent on putting the swap together really, as I have done all the work myself.
I have to strongly disagree about turbo lag not being that bad. I had a stock CT26 on my 7M and that was about all the lag I could stand.
What sort of logic are you using in saying if engine is properly built to handle the power/rpm then it will be reliable? Of course any engine designed and built to run a given power/rpm will be reliable. The problem is you can not change the block or the heads on a 7M really. You can throw whatever crank, rods, pistons and bearings you want into the 7M. Eventually the block will become the weak point. For instance, even with the best (proper) internals you are not going to be able to run 20k rpms on a 7M.
Now that we are on the subject though, there ARE aftermarket blocks and heads available for the LSX. You can get a block with 5 bolt heads and a set of heads with 6 valves/cyl. for an LSX.
And here are those graphs I forgot to post previously.
I have to strongly disagree about turbo lag not being that bad. I had a stock CT26 on my 7M and that was about all the lag I could stand.
What sort of logic are you using in saying if engine is properly built to handle the power/rpm then it will be reliable? Of course any engine designed and built to run a given power/rpm will be reliable. The problem is you can not change the block or the heads on a 7M really. You can throw whatever crank, rods, pistons and bearings you want into the 7M. Eventually the block will become the weak point. For instance, even with the best (proper) internals you are not going to be able to run 20k rpms on a 7M.
Now that we are on the subject though, there ARE aftermarket blocks and heads available for the LSX. You can get a block with 5 bolt heads and a set of heads with 6 valves/cyl. for an LSX.
And here are those graphs I forgot to post previously.
SySt said:
Damn, you mean i cant make 10khp and 20krpm??!!1!1 :rofl:
ct26 lag? They shouldn't be in the same sentence, or you have serious engine issues.
Blow and head change for power handling isn't necessary.
nosechunks said:
Changing the block is not neccessary for handling large amounts of power? You are find stock block and heads at 500 no doubt. What about 3k horsepower? I guarantee you would run into problems with the block and head. I was simply saying that anything "properly" will work great. However sometimes you can no "properly" build an engine due to design restrictions.
Syst, awesome plots, now let's find a 500hp 7m plot and overlay them. And the benefits should be pretty obvious.
Nosechunks, I don't mean that everything else is going to have problems, but they are possible points of failure. I mean if you go off course, you could put a hole in the intercooler, rip a coupler, etc. Anything can happen at the track. And with more parts, that means more places that something could go wrong. Turbos can be reliable, but I do know a lot of people who have blown turbos whether due to use or failure of something else. An oil feed problem can blow a brand new turbo real quick. There are more seals and more moving parts and more points of failure. Do you understand what I'm saying? It's not that they will break, it's that they could and that's something that is a major consideration of mine in terms of reliability.
A mild cam doesn't have to be lumpy, but even if it is, what does idle quality have to do with a performance motor discussion? I mean if we're talking about 500hp motors and actually using them, then idle shouldn't even really be part of the discussion. Unless you're concerned with parade lap performance or pulling through the pits.
And if we're going to talk about engine design, then let's include the part about the LSx weighing less than a 7m and sitting further back, improving the weight balance on the front of the chassis. I think that's more important than how many bolts there are holding the mains. Both motors are strong enough to put out the power, so why is that even an issue. Why don't we compare intake and exhaust port sizes or something else with little to no relevance to the discussion.
Although the weight benefits should be considered if this is any kind of performance car. I mean who doesn't want a more balanced and lighter car?
Prices on the motors were down a little over the summer. Like I said before, I'm not sure on the reason that the prices are a little higher now, whether it's people capitalizing on the higher demand for the motor or just less motors out there because it's winter. But when I was looking late summer/early fall there were a lot more motors on ebay and a bigger range of pricing. I know there was a place in Ohio or something selling them for like $3200 plus shipping. They might have been earlier LS1's but if you're doing stuff then it doesn't really matter. I mean you could go the way Syst did and just get a short block, then aftermarket heads and piece everything together. It depends on what you want out of the motor and how much work you want to do. And for my pricing on an engine rebuild, I'm talking about dropping off a long block and picking up a long block. So machining, parts and assembly. But it's hard to compare prices like that, some people won't pay for assembly and they'll do it themselves, but if we take that out, then we need to take out some of the cost of the Lsx swap because some people will fabricate everything themselves. So it's hard to know where to draw the line, that's why I said, the motor building and Lsx purchase should just cancel each other out for the most part because everyone is going to do it differently and spend a different amount.
As for 7m reliability, what are you basing it on? That it "should" be reliable if built properly? Or the couple people that are pushing higher HP 7m's and that aren't breaking or haven't broken in the past couple months? Are they just drag racing and trailering the car there? Or is it getting road raced or autox'd or drifted and driven on the street? You could have a "reliable" motor if you only drive the car onto the trailer, down the strip once or twice and back on the trailer. But that's not really reliable.
Also, have you driven a higher hp inline 6 and in what situations? If you have one and I just don't know, don't take it as offense. But it doesn't seem like you have. I haven't driven many, but I have driven a 450-500rwhp single turbo 2jz in an mk4. And power delivery wasn't smooth and there was decent lag even with a smaller turbo. I drove the car at Pocono on the road course so this wasn't just driving around on the street and not really getting into boost, I was full throttle whenever I could. And with that setup, I had to get all the way into the gas before the apex in slower corners (2nd gear) so that the power would be there at turn exit. I might have been able to downshift to first, but it would have taken more time. The same day there was a guy there with an LS1 FD and you could see how much easier it was for him to get through those sections. He didn't have to account for lag and change the way he was driving the car. So unless you're just talking about drag racing, then lag is another thing that needs to be considered.
But I will say that driving that mk4 around the pits, it was smooth, so if that's all your talking about, sub 3krpm driving, then it may be smoother, but I wasn't too concerned with times through the pits.
Tim
Nosechunks, I don't mean that everything else is going to have problems, but they are possible points of failure. I mean if you go off course, you could put a hole in the intercooler, rip a coupler, etc. Anything can happen at the track. And with more parts, that means more places that something could go wrong. Turbos can be reliable, but I do know a lot of people who have blown turbos whether due to use or failure of something else. An oil feed problem can blow a brand new turbo real quick. There are more seals and more moving parts and more points of failure. Do you understand what I'm saying? It's not that they will break, it's that they could and that's something that is a major consideration of mine in terms of reliability.
A mild cam doesn't have to be lumpy, but even if it is, what does idle quality have to do with a performance motor discussion? I mean if we're talking about 500hp motors and actually using them, then idle shouldn't even really be part of the discussion. Unless you're concerned with parade lap performance or pulling through the pits.
And if we're going to talk about engine design, then let's include the part about the LSx weighing less than a 7m and sitting further back, improving the weight balance on the front of the chassis. I think that's more important than how many bolts there are holding the mains. Both motors are strong enough to put out the power, so why is that even an issue. Why don't we compare intake and exhaust port sizes or something else with little to no relevance to the discussion.
Although the weight benefits should be considered if this is any kind of performance car. I mean who doesn't want a more balanced and lighter car?
Prices on the motors were down a little over the summer. Like I said before, I'm not sure on the reason that the prices are a little higher now, whether it's people capitalizing on the higher demand for the motor or just less motors out there because it's winter. But when I was looking late summer/early fall there were a lot more motors on ebay and a bigger range of pricing. I know there was a place in Ohio or something selling them for like $3200 plus shipping. They might have been earlier LS1's but if you're doing stuff then it doesn't really matter. I mean you could go the way Syst did and just get a short block, then aftermarket heads and piece everything together. It depends on what you want out of the motor and how much work you want to do. And for my pricing on an engine rebuild, I'm talking about dropping off a long block and picking up a long block. So machining, parts and assembly. But it's hard to compare prices like that, some people won't pay for assembly and they'll do it themselves, but if we take that out, then we need to take out some of the cost of the Lsx swap because some people will fabricate everything themselves. So it's hard to know where to draw the line, that's why I said, the motor building and Lsx purchase should just cancel each other out for the most part because everyone is going to do it differently and spend a different amount.
As for 7m reliability, what are you basing it on? That it "should" be reliable if built properly? Or the couple people that are pushing higher HP 7m's and that aren't breaking or haven't broken in the past couple months? Are they just drag racing and trailering the car there? Or is it getting road raced or autox'd or drifted and driven on the street? You could have a "reliable" motor if you only drive the car onto the trailer, down the strip once or twice and back on the trailer. But that's not really reliable.
Also, have you driven a higher hp inline 6 and in what situations? If you have one and I just don't know, don't take it as offense. But it doesn't seem like you have. I haven't driven many, but I have driven a 450-500rwhp single turbo 2jz in an mk4. And power delivery wasn't smooth and there was decent lag even with a smaller turbo. I drove the car at Pocono on the road course so this wasn't just driving around on the street and not really getting into boost, I was full throttle whenever I could. And with that setup, I had to get all the way into the gas before the apex in slower corners (2nd gear) so that the power would be there at turn exit. I might have been able to downshift to first, but it would have taken more time. The same day there was a guy there with an LS1 FD and you could see how much easier it was for him to get through those sections. He didn't have to account for lag and change the way he was driving the car. So unless you're just talking about drag racing, then lag is another thing that needs to be considered.
But I will say that driving that mk4 around the pits, it was smooth, so if that's all your talking about, sub 3krpm driving, then it may be smoother, but I wasn't too concerned with times through the pits.
Tim
Wiisass said:
Anything could happen with those parts i understand, but thats also not horsepower dependent, thats regardless of output they could get damaged.
idle quality and streetability has everything to do with this discussion, were not talking about race cars, were talking about streetcars.
Position of the engine is up to installer besides the lack of 2 cylinders sticking in front of the 4. It is a light engine, that is agreed.
Cost varies, its all relative, they might be cheaper in your area then mine and might be even cheaper then for the next guy, no biggie.
I dont think duane's, nate's, or anyone eles ESPECIALLY IJ's cars are trailer queens.
I have said low end isn't the best with turbo cars. fastest turbo car ive been in was my buddies grand national. t70 went 10.90's breaking up in third. Even that lag isn't that bad, maybe its just me. i don't mind the lag because i love the feeling of boost coming on.
The thing is we went from talking about lsx swap in a street car, to talking about a balls to the wall 2khp Race car. No street car is perfect on the track, and no street car is perfect for racing.
SySt said:
yea 3000 horsepower in a street car. 500hp to 3khp, screw it lets go for 5khp. :icon_roll
nosechunks said:
You stated "Blow and head change for power handling isn't necessary.". I assume you mean "block" instead of "blow". I was proving you wrong. NEVER did I state that 3khp was a realistic figure, it was a theorectical figure. Don't start getting so emotional that you start using your sarcasm.
Also, what a street car is to me might be totally different what a street car is to you. I wouldn't mind a big really lopey cam in my Supra, i'd still drive it daily. My Supra is also mostly gutted out, has no A/C, back seat, heater core, sound deadening. I plan on driving it all the time to work and back etc. Then again, i'll daily drive a sport bike too. Those are pretty much the epitomy of a race vehicle for the street.
I didn't mean for it to be horsepower dependent, it's a turbo car though, so it needs to be considered with reliability. But they're needed for a 500hp car, just like any turbo car, so they're considered.
If we're talking about street cars, then why do you need a 500hp street car? Just to brag about it at meets? What's the point? If it's a street car just make it look and sound cool.
And in my posts, I mentioned in the beginning that I'm referencing this from a performance/driven car point of view, not a street car. If it were a street car, it would probably just have a stock 7m with a cool exhaust on it and that's it, there's no point. Unless you're street racing and then you might as well just drive into a tree or something because street racing is gayer than getting AIDS from 4 dudes in a public bathroom.
Yes position is up to the installed, but anyone with half a brain is going to at least put the back of the LSx as far back as the back of the 7m improving the longitudinal CG of the engine and therefore the weight balance of the car. If anyone put it further forward, they're an idiot, plain and simple.
Low end and lag go hand in hand. Look at the dyno plots for the LSx motors that Syst posted. Stock Lsx has over 350ft-lbs at 2000rpm. That's awesome. You say you like the feeling of boost coming on, but what if you had that feeling all the time, these motors pull and pull hard. Just look at the torque and power curves. So just because you choose to have lag because you like the feeling, well then you're comments in relation to that are now worthless.
We were never talking about 2khp race cars, I was always talking about track cars that are driven on the street, a lot of other people seemed to keep bringing up drag cars. I think Syst brought up 3k hp just to prove a point. It's' not really relevant for anything other than that. He was just expressing the limitations that some engines have and that you can't always properly build a certain engine to do anything that you want.
But if you want to just talk about a street car, then let's talk about driveability, fuel economy, reliability as a street car motor. So unless you like to wait for power, an LSx has better driveability. There is power everywhere. An LSx murders a high hp 7m on fuel economy. And reliability, well this has been covered a lot.
Tim
If we're talking about street cars, then why do you need a 500hp street car? Just to brag about it at meets? What's the point? If it's a street car just make it look and sound cool.
And in my posts, I mentioned in the beginning that I'm referencing this from a performance/driven car point of view, not a street car. If it were a street car, it would probably just have a stock 7m with a cool exhaust on it and that's it, there's no point. Unless you're street racing and then you might as well just drive into a tree or something because street racing is gayer than getting AIDS from 4 dudes in a public bathroom.
Yes position is up to the installed, but anyone with half a brain is going to at least put the back of the LSx as far back as the back of the 7m improving the longitudinal CG of the engine and therefore the weight balance of the car. If anyone put it further forward, they're an idiot, plain and simple.
Low end and lag go hand in hand. Look at the dyno plots for the LSx motors that Syst posted. Stock Lsx has over 350ft-lbs at 2000rpm. That's awesome. You say you like the feeling of boost coming on, but what if you had that feeling all the time, these motors pull and pull hard. Just look at the torque and power curves. So just because you choose to have lag because you like the feeling, well then you're comments in relation to that are now worthless.
We were never talking about 2khp race cars, I was always talking about track cars that are driven on the street, a lot of other people seemed to keep bringing up drag cars. I think Syst brought up 3k hp just to prove a point. It's' not really relevant for anything other than that. He was just expressing the limitations that some engines have and that you can't always properly build a certain engine to do anything that you want.
But if you want to just talk about a street car, then let's talk about driveability, fuel economy, reliability as a street car motor. So unless you like to wait for power, an LSx has better driveability. There is power everywhere. An LSx murders a high hp 7m on fuel economy. And reliability, well this has been covered a lot.
Tim
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