How much experience do you have with 2J S2000s to determine that they are only useful for straight line purposes?
Completed LSx (or 1 or 6 or 7 or...)?
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OneJoeZee said:
I was referring more to the mention of V8 Miatas. I myself have been given a passenger ride in one, and it lacked the poise and balance that I've expereiced from other miatas. Acceleration wise, it flew, in every other aspect it failed. Epically.
I suppose the same concept applies to swapping in a 2JZ in a S2000:
Big Engine, Big power and a small car that wasn't really designed to have nearly that much power.
Sports cars rely on balance, as soon as you start swapping in big engine putting down twice as much power as the car originally made, you throw off the balance and when you throw off the balance, you're left with a spoil sports car that is only really any good for the traffic light grand prix and Drag Strip.
you're forgetting most of our roads here are straight...
hence why cruiser motorcycles and huge luxo barges are everywhere...
hence why cruiser motorcycles and huge luxo barges are everywhere...
DonS1mpson said:
This is just Joe's answer when he's been proven wrong and has no rebuddle. :icon_bigg
No. That's my not-responding-anymore-because-I-don't-feel-like-looking-up-examples-and-evidence-to-show-my-point-because-the-person-I'm-replying-to-won't-understand-anyway answer. (not you btw. you're cool. Dons1mpson... well, anyway. 
)
)DonS1mpson said:
It's not really the power ruining the handling, it's not accounting for the change in weight properly. Weight will ruin a car if it's not accounted for and this goes both ways. Add some weight to one end of the car and it gets screwed up, remove weight from one end of the car and it also gets screwed up. Power can have something to do with it, but if you're talking about the cars balance, then it would be more because of the weight change than anything.
Anyway,
I will be putting an LSx in my brother's car as soon as the time and money are there, so hopefully sometime in the spring/summer, but depending on how long the 7m that's in there lasts it might not be until next winter. My reasons are weight, cost, reliability and power.
I don't have exact numbers, but it should help the front of the car drop a couple pounds and it will sit further back in the engine bay helping the weight distribution of the car a little. And if I have the time, it will sit even further back if I end up modding the firewall and doing all that crazy stuff.
If you look on ebay or junkyards, you can find low mile LS motors out of whatever with a 6speed and ecu and wiring harness for 3-3500. It's less than properly building a 7m and less than it would cost to get a 1j in there and making the same power. The incidentals will add up a little, but since I'm doing the fab work and everything else myself at the shop, I'm not going to count that. Because I would also be doing the same fab work to a 1j if I were to put it in.
Reliability would be better with an LS motor pushing 400hp than a stock 1j pushing 400hp. There's less stuff to fail or cause problems, everything is simpler. It's not pushing the motor much at all to make that power, depending on which LS you get. And even if there are small problems, replacement parts are cheap and 5 minutes away.
Power, it's instant, always there, no waiting for turbos, none of that. There's good torque and good power. It's always available. And it would be enough for now until it's time to tear down the engine and get some of it worked on.
Another note, my application will be a fully built road race/drift car. So power delivery is one of the most important things. Pushing higher hp out of a turbo car can hurt you. I drove a 450-500hp small single turbo Mk4 at Pocono raceway earlier this year. It was fast when you could keep the turbo spooled, but when rpms dropped too low, I was losing ground on slower cars. I caught up to them when the power came on, but if I had the power available throughout the whole course, I would've been further ahead of them. And for drifting, it would be awesome.
Tim
wiisass and onejoezee have said just about everything I was thinking with regard to this swap (and some of the things I was thinking about some of the dissenting comments).
Weight and weight distribution can only be positively affected by this swap.
Because the LS engine is going to be lighter (even with the cast iron LSX), and it's shorter, some of the weight will be biased further back in the chassis.
IIRC, Stock supra's have a weight distribution of around 53% front/47% rear. I think the magic 50/50 is do-able with an LSX and almost certainly do-able with the LS7.
The notion that a 7mgte or 1jzgtte or 2jzgtte etc. is going to reliably produce useable power on par with an LS engine (at any price) is patently false. There I said it.
Whether your going to drag race, road race, rally-x or whatever, life's gonna be better with an LS.
I would have argued against this untill very recently (and have), but when I took my sentiments out of it, the truth became obvious.
:icon_bigg
Weight and weight distribution can only be positively affected by this swap.
Because the LS engine is going to be lighter (even with the cast iron LSX), and it's shorter, some of the weight will be biased further back in the chassis.
IIRC, Stock supra's have a weight distribution of around 53% front/47% rear. I think the magic 50/50 is do-able with an LSX and almost certainly do-able with the LS7.
The notion that a 7mgte or 1jzgtte or 2jzgtte etc. is going to reliably produce useable power on par with an LS engine (at any price) is patently false. There I said it.
Whether your going to drag race, road race, rally-x or whatever, life's gonna be better with an LS.
I would have argued against this untill very recently (and have), but when I took my sentiments out of it, the truth became obvious.
:icon_bigg
Syris said:
That would be Travis' latest project.On that one it is a civic body/shell stretched over a Corvette chassis. Some of his other creations were a SBC 89 Supra and a 2J powered 87 (?) Corrollla. I am hearing after he finishes Civette that he is planning a 7M hybrid.
You're going to have well over 5.5K in an LSX before you get to 450RWHP, the example I gave can get you there in about 4K completed.Wiisass said:
My buddy on the nova forums has a '72 Nova with a bone stock bottom end 5.3 lsx motor with a gt-45 turbo. He has like $2500 in the swap. He was lucky with some parts and a little know how, but the car is brutal. It has gone 9.90's with him diving in and out of the throttle every time the big boost kicked in and melted the tires. Lsx's aren't neatly packaged little swaps into the old cars either, but they're a great value and make impressive power compared to our dinosaur small blocks and 7m's.
Car domain: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2251820
Car domain: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2251820
Poodles said:
You're probably right, I was trying to recall the spec from memory
nono... and didn't want to sound optimistic. So maybe even the LSX (iron block) would be enough weight savings to attain 50/50 weight distribution. That would be great, since the LS7 (alloy block) is pretty expensive.
I don't see how this could be any tougher than swapping a 2jz into a Supra, especially a pre-89.
:icon_bigg
suprabad said:
Unless your talking about insane 1000+ horsepower, i cant see this being true. a properly Built 7m and 1jz will make and handle big power, its been proven. A 2j without a doubt will make and handle big (1000+) power reliably and its been proven too many times to count. And if you compare horsepower per liter, your statement is even more false.
the ls1's only advantage as far as power goes is displacement, its nearly double that of a 7m or 2j and is double or more for the ls2 and ls7.
Duane made 814hp on 3 liters? that would be like an ls1 car making 1546 horsepower to the tire. or an ls7 car making 1899 horsepower to the tire. (witch i would love to see in a street car comparable to duane's/nate's) The power band or "usable power" of those motors wont be "instant" or flat and broad like a 400 horsepower naturally aspirated mild v8 or small turbo'ed supra engine either.
I know not many people care about horsepower per liter, but when you say a 3 liter engine wont make the same "usable" power as 5.7 liter, you need to compare apples to apples. an ls1 will make 1546 horsepower with a power band just as peaky as Duane's 7m. A 300horsepower 7m will make just as broad of a power band as a 570 horsepower ls1. IJ complains of too much low end torque on his properly built 7m.
Again, money makes anything happen, dollar for dollar it wont happen. just for the cost of the lsx+tranny, ecu and harness. (i also dont know where everything needed for the swap was found for under 4 grand when i just checked ebay and it was minimum of 4k, and that was for one with an automatic, 6 speeds were more pending mileage. average 5k) you could build a 7m to handle and make more power, more reliably then a stock ls1 with bolt-ons, with an on par power band. But If money was no object............
Also again, im not doubting the reliability, power ability or durability of the lsx series, just saying its not possible dollar for dollar to swap to an lsx and make more power reliably, and furthermore showing what an lsx would have to do to be apples to apples comparable to 1j's, 2j's or 7m's out there.
Rajunz said:
The only time I mentioned 450hp was in reference to the 4th gen supra. And your example, was using a 2jzge with some super cheap ebay turbo kit. It also didn't include proper engine management, injectors, etc. And it was in reference to a drag setup. In my posts I said I wanted it for road racing and drifting. Area under the curve and throttle reponse is what's important. I could make more peak power with some big turbo, but it would suck for driving.
nosechunks said:
1000hp out of a turbo motor isn't usable power. Usable power means power that you can actually use, not power you have to wait a couple minutes for. Some people care more about other types of racing or having a sweet street car and for driveability and throttle response are going to be better with the LS than they would with a 7m/jzwhatever.
Horsepower per liter is a cop out for people who have smaller engines not making as much power as bigger engines. A more relevant rating would be power per pound. Because the engine size doesn't really tell you how much the engine will weigh and that would make a much better comparison. Because I could have an LSx in an mk3 making 75hp per liter and you could have a 7m in the car making 150 per liter, and I think my car would be faster in pretty much everything.
And it does seem like pricing on the LSx swap at least on ebay has gone up a little since it starting getting colder out. I don't know if that's because of winter or because of demand or what. But a couple months ago, there were LS1's with 30-40k miles with 6speed and ecu and harness for about 3500 to your door. Maybe they will go down when it gets warm and people start crashing them more or maybe prices got inflated because of the new demand for them.
But with a budget of say $5-6k, putting an LSx in your car is a better option. Someone can run the numbers if they want to, but try to be fair if you do. I mean, you could piece together some super cheap setup for the 1j/2j/7m and probably make as much power, but then reliability gets screwed up. I mean there's a lot of options and there's a lot of ways to do it. But it's hard to beat the reliability and power delivery for the cost. It does depend what you're going for and that does factor in. So I'm not saying the LSx is the end all be all of motors, but it's a very viable option no matter how much the purist supra owners want to think it isn't.
Tim
Wiisass said:
I agree its a viable option. 5-6 grand....
My motor machine work (bored+honed, block and head smoothed for MHG, 3 angle VJ, full boil cleaning. Basic Full rebuild), ross pistons, Toyota gasket set, new Toyota factory oil pump, and MHG came out to about 2300 bucks. Im going to be putting rods in now witch i didnt have the money for at the time so another 500 for the build to $2800 (eagles)
2800 bucks, built motor that could handle 6-700horsepower without a problem IMO. My car is automatic witch would cost more for tranny clutches and converter blah blah so figure a 5speed car to keep it comparable to an ls1 6 speed car.
2800 for built completed motor
400 for clutch kit
1200 for turbo
450 for injectors
500 for ic, piping and couplers turbo to TB,
200 for turbo manifold.
500 for maft pro.
200 for all other little gaskets, flywheel machining, valve shims, timing belt, water pump.
500 for exhaust system
$6750 for a 7m that will make and handle 500 horse to the tire reliably.
4500 for LS1 engine,tranny,harness and ecu
1000 for all the things to make it fit, driveshaft, metal for brackets, fuel fittings/lines headers, all the other shit.
1700 for heads and cam kit to make ~450 to the tire
500 for exhaust system.
400 for clutch
$8100 for a 450horsepower stock bottom end reliable ls1.
Minus the heads and cam $6400 will get a stock long blocked ls1 in a supra ready for modding. The problem is having to buy the engine for that initial 4500 bucks, that right there covers the engine build, turbo and injectors in a 7m build.
The usable power i was referring to was the low end power for drifting or auto cross as you were talking about.
The horsepower/liter thing was just to show how hard these engines were being pushed on a daily basis, show me a ls1 with that type of power per liter in a street car.... a REAL street car. 814 horsepower is alot of horsepower for a street car regardless of size of engine, were not talking hondas here lol.
Decent comparison. A couple things just to be fair. 400 for an R154 clutch that would hold 500hp? I want to know where to get that. I would think probably double that for something that would work for the setup. The rest is probably alright, but you would also need to include tuning, so whatever that costs. I won't even complain about the cheap manifold and IC setup becuase you can get stuff for that price that would probably work alright.
For the LS1, that could be right. I was looking at some numbers and with just a cam people are making 400whp. So if you drop the heads ($1200), you're at $6900.
So even if you were making 500whp with the 7m for the same price as the LS1 making 400whp, I would probably still take the LS1. And it's not even preference, it's just knowing what I want out of an engine. I want power whenever I touch the pedal, never having to open the hood for anything and a lighter setup. I would run anything that could give me that, I have no loyalty to any engine setup. An engine needs to serve a purpose, I don't care who made it as long as it does what I need it to.
And that $4500 would be a big hit, but you could have that down $1k if you're a smart shopped. Deals are out there, sometimes more work, but they're there. I would rather buy parts seperately and save some money. And I know there are places selling them cheaper or at least they were. And there were also a lot more setups on ebay than there are now. I'm really thinking it's just winter affecting the price and availability.
In the end, it will come down to what you want to do with your car. I'm really just stating my reasons and justification for deciding to follow this path when the time comes. I just like the idea of less parts to fail, less expensive parts to add on, basically less work after the initial install. There's nothing worse to me than having to work on the engine at the track. I want something I can drive there and get 30mpg, then beat the piss out of all day without having to open the hood to fix stuff or cool it or check anything and then drive home. And I really think the LSx would match those desires better than anything else right now.
Tim
For the LS1, that could be right. I was looking at some numbers and with just a cam people are making 400whp. So if you drop the heads ($1200), you're at $6900.
So even if you were making 500whp with the 7m for the same price as the LS1 making 400whp, I would probably still take the LS1. And it's not even preference, it's just knowing what I want out of an engine. I want power whenever I touch the pedal, never having to open the hood for anything and a lighter setup. I would run anything that could give me that, I have no loyalty to any engine setup. An engine needs to serve a purpose, I don't care who made it as long as it does what I need it to.
And that $4500 would be a big hit, but you could have that down $1k if you're a smart shopped. Deals are out there, sometimes more work, but they're there. I would rather buy parts seperately and save some money. And I know there are places selling them cheaper or at least they were. And there were also a lot more setups on ebay than there are now. I'm really thinking it's just winter affecting the price and availability.
In the end, it will come down to what you want to do with your car. I'm really just stating my reasons and justification for deciding to follow this path when the time comes. I just like the idea of less parts to fail, less expensive parts to add on, basically less work after the initial install. There's nothing worse to me than having to work on the engine at the track. I want something I can drive there and get 30mpg, then beat the piss out of all day without having to open the hood to fix stuff or cool it or check anything and then drive home. And I really think the LSx would match those desires better than anything else right now.
Tim
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