To be sure that there is no coolant/water/contaminants in the oil/oil pan...
Oil is cheap, btw. A full rebuild is not.
Oil is cheap, btw. A full rebuild is not.
I would really REALLY advise you to take the block out, take everything to a machine shop. Have them clean everything, put new bearings in and surface the head and block and put a metal headgasket on with ARP's. Then get them to re-assemble it all and all you have to do is put in a fully assembled motor. I know it might seem expensive but if they're reputable, they'll get it done right and no one will tell you you had the money to do it twice but not do it right the first time. You'll be a lot happier in the end...speaking from personal experience btw.
^^^
agreed, you should get the block and the head sufaced and lapped. This is not because it is something that is suggested, it is because it is necessary. The thing with metal head gaskets, is that they only work on a prefectly flat and smooth surface in order to get a good seal. it wont cost you that much if you take out the block yourself and get them to machine it. Unless you have the very expensive machinery to get the job done and the knowledge, then let someone else do who does. When it comes to the mating of two materials that have very different expansion rates and hardness (in this case steal and aluminum), it is nessescary for surfaces to be prefectly flat.
While you are at it, get the head check for hardness and flatness, you may need a new one if it is out of resurfacable spec. If you dont know the condition of the bearings and engine use (I am presuming you are not the first owner of this supra), you may want to get new ones because the 7M has a bad habit of throwing them out, which will cost a lot more in the end.
We are here to help and there is not real short cut in this case, unless you want to find yourself doing this again sometime soon. The only money saver in this case is cutting down the labor time that the shops do, since that is what costs so much, you will save a lot of money by pulling the engine.
agreed, you should get the block and the head sufaced and lapped. This is not because it is something that is suggested, it is because it is necessary. The thing with metal head gaskets, is that they only work on a prefectly flat and smooth surface in order to get a good seal. it wont cost you that much if you take out the block yourself and get them to machine it. Unless you have the very expensive machinery to get the job done and the knowledge, then let someone else do who does. When it comes to the mating of two materials that have very different expansion rates and hardness (in this case steal and aluminum), it is nessescary for surfaces to be prefectly flat.
While you are at it, get the head check for hardness and flatness, you may need a new one if it is out of resurfacable spec. If you dont know the condition of the bearings and engine use (I am presuming you are not the first owner of this supra), you may want to get new ones because the 7M has a bad habit of throwing them out, which will cost a lot more in the end.
We are here to help and there is not real short cut in this case, unless you want to find yourself doing this again sometime soon. The only money saver in this case is cutting down the labor time that the shops do, since that is what costs so much, you will save a lot of money by pulling the engine.
what 7Msupr0 said....HIGHLY Recomended!!! I did a head job a while back without doing the bottom end. I'm paying for it now. aftter my rebuild, compression specs were back to OEM but i didn't do anything about the rings or block or anything. blew the seals & rings, oil drained during driving, crank ceased....i think....i'm still working out what happened.... DO IT ALL AT ONCE!! you won't be dissapointed.
AlbanyAng said:
Sorry it took so long for me to reply, I don't visit this forum every day:
Hmmm.... I don't recall if there is a drain on the block. If there is, and its not covered over in crud, then yes, most of it will. I do alot of bhg jobs on Chevy v8's, and the drain is usually below the crud in the block. I got most of the water outta mine with compressed air. Made a big mess, but I needed to wash under the hood anyway. The main thing is to get as much of the rust and crud out as you can, and make sure you blow any water, oil, and trash outta the head bolt holes with the air. Clean the head bolt threads with a wire brush, and use a very thin coat of oil to lube the threads. Usually put oil on a rag and then rub it around the bolts so that I don't get to much oil on them. If you use new bolts, you need to retorque them at your first oil change(1000 mi., not 3000). Took about an hour for me to do this on my 87 n/a.
Edit: The change the oil twice thing is a good idea, especially if you drained the oil before you took it apart. I usually don't drain the oil until after Ive completed the job. Then, after I'm done putting the engine back together, I drain the oil. Water is heavier than oil, and will be sittting in the bottom of the pan. All the oil pushes the water out first. If your really concerned about it, take out the oil drain plug, and pour a qt. of oil over the cams before you put the valve covers back on, and let it drain completly. That will push out any water that may be left in the oil system. As far as trash in the pan, its not that likely, and that's the reason for the screen in the pick up tube, and the oil filter. Your not gonna get the oil pan really clean without removing it anyway.
Wade3570: Your problem is more likely due to old, leaking cam seals(new ones were included in the head gasket kit), and a leaking crank seal(which you shoulda looked for and replaced while you had the timing belt off), letting all the oil outta your engine, and trashing all the bearings. Good luck with that. There's a lotta good Supra people over there in FL. on here and SF. Maybe you can get some of them to give you a hand...
I don't tell people to take their major repair work to an experienced mechanic just because I am one. I tell people to take it to an experienced mechanic because we know what common problems to look for that are easier to fix while we're in your motor. Example: I check the rear main seal on every vehicle I pull the transmission out of. Its easier to fix while I have the trans. out. I check cam and crank seals every time I do a timing belt.
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drumminforev said:
They all used different compounds for different reasons. IJ describes his lapping block in detail, and why he uses the particular metal its made out of.... Lapping a block is actually a very technical job, and requires a fairly good amount of expertise, which, no insult intended, I don't think you have at this time. You really should just pull the motor out, and take it to the machine shop. They know what they're doing, and they'll do it right. Get the bottom end done while its there(like I suggested earlier), and then actually MAINTAIN your vehicle once you get it back together. Read my post here:
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=417523
I'm to tired to retype it.
D
drumminforev
Guest
Cool thanks for all the advice everyone. The head is trash so im taking it to a recycler soon. Every single water jacket was cracking almost into the combustion chamber, or erroded away.
And there just happened to be a special at pick and pull salvage yard so i grabbed a head off a 7mge that wasnt bhg, it looks brand spankin new, for $40. Im getting it milled and slapping it on the block. the block has no pitting, weird surface texture so it should be good.
Got my oem head gasket (why would i go metal for NA?) and im putting that on once the new head is surfaced
BTW i have never owned this vehicle. I turned it on once when i bought it (as bhg) then took it apart when i saw plumes of smoke. I don't intend on boosting this car or anything.
And there just happened to be a special at pick and pull salvage yard so i grabbed a head off a 7mge that wasnt bhg, it looks brand spankin new, for $40. Im getting it milled and slapping it on the block. the block has no pitting, weird surface texture so it should be good.
Got my oem head gasket (why would i go metal for NA?) and im putting that on once the new head is surfaced
BTW i have never owned this vehicle. I turned it on once when i bought it (as bhg) then took it apart when i saw plumes of smoke. I don't intend on boosting this car or anything.
drumminforev said:
donnys90T said:
as demonstrated here: you can work hard, or you can work smart.
incidentally donny, that's very clever, I usually just use a lever.
Hey all - sorry for being out of the loop - been sick and dealing with the rest of my life. I’m a little league coach and it’s the busy season for that.
I see there are several suggestions that the block also be machined/serviced at this point. I was hoping that I could away with just taking care of the head. Got it back from the machine shop. I had them do a complete valve job and they also found that the intake camshaft was warped so it had to be replaced. Cost $635. Not planning to redo the block. Also, I don't think that the shop would rebuild my engine for me now that it's in pieces.
At this point I have not gone ahead and used a power washer to clean out the coolant ports in the block out of fear of really messing things up. A more experienced friend suggested that it might not be wise to do with the block still in the car. Anyway I plan on running (pouring) water into the ports and flushing several times. (BTW for those who were wondering: there is a coolant drain plug on the exhaust side of the block for this vehicle – it was easy for me to get to and open up)
As far as prepping the block surface this is what I’ve done up to this point. The gasket came off pretty much in tack so there wasn’t a lot of crap let behind. To start with I coated the entire surface and piston tops with kerosene and let it sit for a couple of days. I then started by scraping the bigger pieces of gasket left over with a plastic (dull) scraper followed by scrubbing with a toothbrush. Once I finished doing this I wet sanded the surface with kerosene and 500 grit Silicon Carbide sandpaper with a rubber sanding block. After a little while I wiped off the generated reside with a dry rag first followed by a kerosene rag and repeated the sanding until I felt like I had cleaned as best I could and did go too far. Note that during this process I stuffed rolled up (old) socks into the cylinders to keep crap out. As I moved up and down the block I relocated socks as I turned the crankshaft to get at the top of the pistons.
To clean the tops of the pistons I poured a little kerosene on top of each (not over flowing) and let it soak and loosen up the residue – especially in the valve clearance valleys. I scrubbed as best I could with the toothbrush and followed that up by cleaning the tough spots with a flat head screw driver covered with several layers of rags to avoid scratching the piston tops. Followed all of this with several dry/wet wiping cycles. When I finished I wiped the block and piston tops with a kerosene soaked rag. Note that I used kerosene in place of brake cleaner because brake cleaner tends to pull of the oil on the metal surface and I did not want to expose it to the cool moist air of winter. The oil in the kerosene keeps the metal sealed. Gasoline is way too volatile – especially since my water heater is close to my garage.
I will try to post some before and after photos soon.
Any criticisms, comments suggestions are welcome – hopefully my approach is somewhat within the acceptable practice guidelines of you better mechanics – I am an amateur.
Peace –A-
I see there are several suggestions that the block also be machined/serviced at this point. I was hoping that I could away with just taking care of the head. Got it back from the machine shop. I had them do a complete valve job and they also found that the intake camshaft was warped so it had to be replaced. Cost $635. Not planning to redo the block. Also, I don't think that the shop would rebuild my engine for me now that it's in pieces.
At this point I have not gone ahead and used a power washer to clean out the coolant ports in the block out of fear of really messing things up. A more experienced friend suggested that it might not be wise to do with the block still in the car. Anyway I plan on running (pouring) water into the ports and flushing several times. (BTW for those who were wondering: there is a coolant drain plug on the exhaust side of the block for this vehicle – it was easy for me to get to and open up)
As far as prepping the block surface this is what I’ve done up to this point. The gasket came off pretty much in tack so there wasn’t a lot of crap let behind. To start with I coated the entire surface and piston tops with kerosene and let it sit for a couple of days. I then started by scraping the bigger pieces of gasket left over with a plastic (dull) scraper followed by scrubbing with a toothbrush. Once I finished doing this I wet sanded the surface with kerosene and 500 grit Silicon Carbide sandpaper with a rubber sanding block. After a little while I wiped off the generated reside with a dry rag first followed by a kerosene rag and repeated the sanding until I felt like I had cleaned as best I could and did go too far. Note that during this process I stuffed rolled up (old) socks into the cylinders to keep crap out. As I moved up and down the block I relocated socks as I turned the crankshaft to get at the top of the pistons.
To clean the tops of the pistons I poured a little kerosene on top of each (not over flowing) and let it soak and loosen up the residue – especially in the valve clearance valleys. I scrubbed as best I could with the toothbrush and followed that up by cleaning the tough spots with a flat head screw driver covered with several layers of rags to avoid scratching the piston tops. Followed all of this with several dry/wet wiping cycles. When I finished I wiped the block and piston tops with a kerosene soaked rag. Note that I used kerosene in place of brake cleaner because brake cleaner tends to pull of the oil on the metal surface and I did not want to expose it to the cool moist air of winter. The oil in the kerosene keeps the metal sealed. Gasoline is way too volatile – especially since my water heater is close to my garage.
I will try to post some before and after photos soon.
Any criticisms, comments suggestions are welcome – hopefully my approach is somewhat within the acceptable practice guidelines of you better mechanics – I am an amateur.
Peace –A-
Cool, sounds like you did a good job. I use an air die grinder with surfacing disks (http://www.matcotools.com/Catalog/toolcatalog.jsp?cattype=T&cat=2389&select= 2nd one down to be exact)to do what you did with the sand paper; its faster is all. The trick is to not spend much time in one spot, continuously move from one end to the other untill the surface is clean. This helps keep the surface flat. I use brake clean cause it dries fast, and I'm putting the head on right away. Anyway, congrats on doing a good job, I'm glad to hear that you got your head done as well. Hell, you did a better job than some "mechanics" I know. When you set the head in, make sure you set it directly on the pins, don't scrape it around or you'll scratch the head. Use a head bolt on each hole with a dowel pin (2) to help you line it up. A friend helping you makes it easier. Just make sure you torque the head bolts to 65 ft lbs. in three stages. I usually put them all in a few turns by hand, then put them in snug with a small ratchet from the center out using a circle pattern. I then torque them to 25, then 45, then 65 in sequence. If you use new bolts, back them off 1 full turn (starting at the ends and working your way in to the middle), and retorque them with the afore mentioned stages from the middle out. After about 1000 mi., change your oil, pull the valve covers, and torque the bolts to 70 (from the middle out of course). That's about all thats left for me to share. Sounds like you got it under control. Just take your time putting it back together, and you'll have a good, long lasting motor when your done.
Oh yeah, the machine shop would probably still put it together for you, they'd just charge more...
Oh yeah, the machine shop would probably still put it together for you, they'd just charge more...
Thanks for the and the words of encouragement and tips on putting the head back on. Getting the head may be a bit tricky unless I get a friend to help - my kids aren't strong enough to be of much help. The ARP headbolts came in yesterday so now I need to find time to make it happen. I really appreciate the help!cuel said:
Interesting how you use Kerosene...I don't think I've heard of anyone else using it.
Make sure you clean the head and block sealing surfaces with Brakleen before putting them together...
Make sure you clean the head and block sealing surfaces with Brakleen before putting them together...
D
drumminforev
Guest
Ok i got the head on, almost ready to start it up. Im pretty sure the distributor is lined up. The manual says align the grove in the dis with the protrusion on the teeth, but there is no protrusion on the teeth anywhere, so I just set cyl1 at tdc and put the rotor right before plug wire one. Should be right?
make sure it's TDC on compression stroke, not exhaust. the nubs on the cams should be straight up iirc. the other way is to look at the cams and visually check that the valves are closed on cylinder 1, if you have the covers on already you can look down thru the oil filler cap.
The best way to be sure that the timing is correct is to have the timing marks for the cams set in the correct position. Once this is done, yes, as long as the rotor is pointed at #1, its pretty close. Once you get it running, use a timing light and set the timing as instructed in the tsrm.