can i drive my mk3 whit ethanol?

[Poodles]

E85 is cheaper than racegas though... that and it's not leaded.

I agree, the ONLY application I can see it being used effectively is in turbocharged cars. Would be interesting to see if you could tune it for both and retrofit one of the OEM octane sensors in the gas tank to swap maps... (more timing, more boost, more fuel)

I don't see any way to do it with anything less than a standalone without getting it to be way too complicated...

 

[gaboonviper85]

Ding ding ding, there is a study floating around (sorry no references, but IIRC, it's a prestigious university that did it) that states that the overall ethanol process might actually be using more energy than it creates; a net loss of energy.

Also, Ethanol has less BTU's than gasoline, so even though it has a higher octane, you have to inject more of it to get the same power/mileage/results.

Yeah in the end, it's a waste of your time and moeny I would say.

Not to mention that as much OIL is used to produce ethanol as the ethanol produced. It's pointless and a waste...

i think you all are wrong....or atleast have no idea why we use ethanol in fuel....it wasnt made to increase performance...it was made to REPLACE LEAD!!! lead raised the detonation threshold in fuels but it also placed lead all over and is very poisons...ethanol simply is an octane booster not a performace enhancer....we need it or else we go back to leaded gas which is a very very bad idea!

so no its not pointless to use ethanol even if it takes more oil to make it....we need it....power needs it....without it yall cant boost worth shit.

 

[figgie]

unfortunately to the dismay of most of you it does eat through rubber and other components in a fuel system...at least it does on this car www.uwracing.com...

but i could really care less if you all want to run ethanol in your car, you don't really know what kind of rubber is used to seal injectors and other parts of the system so you might as well try it and see what happens, if it ruins things I guess you will learn your lesson...

Congrats on FSAE, but I have had this discussion with other schools, tuners etc.


Injector seals are either Buna-N, Viton, Silicone, Nitrile Rubber, PTFE (tm Teflon) to name a few. Rubber based O-ring have not been used since the advent of the sythetic based o-rings.

But did you test under pressure and heat, and without pressure? I betcha that can change a lot.

Test? What part of running E85 did you not understand? lol Again, the one dimensional thinking that is always is prevelant shows again. The stock system does not flow enough to even keep up with 550cc/min @ 85%DC. The ND Fuel pump is compatible with E85 but will get you no where powerwise as it just does not flow.

Well I hate to say it since I work on a race car that is primarily funded from a major ethanol producer but other then the increase in octane (good for turbo cars - cheap "race" fuel if you don't count any of the mods it takes to run it and the increase in fuel used) the stuff is junk. It was basically a government kick back to the farmers...Bad process (uses lots of oil to produce, wastes food supplies, and the consumer gets 66% the efficiency with E85 compared to pure gasoline). All in all I would say screw it and get myself a barrel of 105-110 Race gas instead of dealing with ethanol hassle. If I was trying to push high boost through my car that is!

I again want to warn anybody that reads this thread and thinks they can just run E85 in their supra without a problem aka without the proper tuning and modifications...You will go straight to detonation land under boost, that is if the car even starts with the stuff.

Without proper tuning? That is ANY fuel (forget E85). Gasoline/Petrol, LPG, NG, H + O2 engines etc.

When E85 is tuned correctly. It will produce MORE power at the same RPM and pressure levels than the same octane based gasoline. More fuel? at 500 rwhp+, I am going to take a wild guess and say that MPG or pollution control will not be at the top of the priority list.

 

[Poodles]

i think you all are wrong....or atleast have no idea why we use ethanol in fuel....it wasnt made to increase performance...it was made to REPLACE LEAD!!! lead raised the detonation threshold in fuels but it also placed lead all over and is very poisons...ethanol simply is an octane booster not a performace enhancer....we need it or else we go back to leaded gas which is a very very bad idea!

so no its not pointless to use ethanol even if it takes more oil to make it....we need it....power needs it....without it yall cant boost worth shit.

Nope, before ethanol they used other additives. The transition from lead happened decades ago while the transition to ethanol just happened recently.

 

[suprafanatic]

so does race gas 100-110octane have lead in it?? or is it pure gasoline? im curious cause im going to be getting some race gas to dyno tune my car, and run it at the strip.

 

[Poodles]

Depends on the gas IIRC, some brands are leaded, others aren't.

 

[figgie]

VPImports C series gasoline all contain lead. (C12, C13, C14, C15, C16)

 

[suprafanatic]

so is that bad to run on then?
is there a race gas without lead?

 

[Poodles]

Leaded gas + catalytic converter = bad

Cat gets coated in the lead, clogs up and any power you where hoping to make it history.

I am unsure of any other effects it would have on the other systems in the car like the O2 sensor or the fuel system. Though others seem to not have issues.

 

[92TealSupra]

I know it can ruin o2 Sensors for sure. Car these days are made to run on no-leaded gasoline anyhow, emissions systems on cars are so advanced now that I bet you'd run the risk of serious issues.

 

[supradjza80]

First of all I believe the highest octane non-leaded race gas offered is 108 (but i forge the company that sells it, maybe Torco(sp)).

EDIT - info on Torco's 108 octane unleaded fuel, http://torcoracefuels.com/content/view/209/3/

also keep in mind there are many other unleaded fuel choices from 95-108 octane.

Without proper tuning? That is ANY fuel (forget E85). Gasoline/Petrol, LPG, NG, H + O2 engines etc.

obviously this is true, but with some of the comments in this section people will think they could just throw E85 in their car (not from anything you said)...for what its worth people can throw any gasoline/petrol that is unleaded in their cars up to 108 octane with no damage done to the engine - it may not perform better but it won't blow up.

Anyway you seem to be a pretty big proponent for ethanol and I wish you luck with whatever you try to do with it. I am not sure what the seals on our injectors are made of but I know it caused our FSAE engine group a lot of trouble. Since I am the suspension group leader I didn't deal with it myself.

As for Ethanol creating more power given the same engine and proper tuning we have also found that to be false (FSAE car). Going from 100 unleaded to ethanol lost our engine between 5-10 hp throughout the powerband...

 

[supradjza80]

I know it can ruin o2 Sensors for sure. Car these days are made to run on no-leaded gasoline anyhow, emissions systems on cars are so advanced now that I bet you'd run the risk of serious issues.

basically ruining O2 sensors and cats is the only drawback to Leaded fuel...other than the environmental side of it.

 

[IJ.]

Martini 1400 unleaded is right up there if not the highest.

 

[suprafanatic]

well i dont have a cat. on my car.. so only thing to worry about would be the O2 sensor.. what about the wideband sensor? would it ruin that to? i guess i'll just try to find some unleaded race fuel.

 

[supradjza80]

well i dont have a cat. on my car.. so only thing to worry about would be the O2 sensor.. what about the wideband sensor? would it ruin that to? i guess i'll just try to find some unleaded race fuel.

yes, the leaded gas can and probably will at some point ruin both of your o2 sensors. Some people have had really good luck with the sensors not going bad and others have had bad luck and the sensors go bad in 30 miles. I have heard that even with the sensors bad the cars run fine still but i have no idea about how true this is (this pertains to some of the big HP mk4's).

But unless you want to run really high levels of boost you can probably find a unleaded race gas that suits your needs.

 

[Poodles]

I've HEARD, dunno if it's true, that running the O2 sensors closer to the turbo like where the stock one is keeps them from fouling up too quickly (as the temps are too high for the lead to solidify)

 

[suprafanatic]

i can see how that would be true.. i have both my sensors in the turbo elbow

 

[turbogate]

This thread got me wondering.

Those gas stations that now say "May contain up to 10% ethanol) which probably means contains 15% :evil2:. Is that enough to alter the AFRs?

My cars AFR has been going up and down (steady mid to low 11s, and some other times scary lean under boost) and I could never figure why. I even posted a thread asking if running a little low on gas instead of half tank and up could affect AFRs, lol. I must admit that I have not been consistent in sticking to one gas station also.

Thanks

 

[supradjza80]

I don't think that would be a cause of the problem. Running lean on ethanol would still be really rich for gasoline (for example 10:1 would be lean for a turbo application with ethanol). I really dont think our cars notice any difference on ethanol or gasoline (that is the ECU doesn't know the fuel is different and doesnt compensate for a different fuel). It just uses the O2 sensor and trys to get the AF between its desired ratio on Gasoline. Which is why using E85 without tuning is extremely dangerous.

 

[Poodles]

Wrong, O2 sensor has very little ability to trim the fuel, if you dumped E85 in your tank you'd go LEAN no matter what.