Can a bad turbo cause BHG symptoms?

[xanatos]

:1zhelp:

Ok guys, I need a little sage wisdom here. As I know coolant lines run through the turbo as well as the oil lines, I was wondering if there would be a situation where a crack could form in the turbo that could cause BHG symptoms. If it's not, then I'm afraid I'm going to have to get a new long block. :nono:

I had an overheat due to a blown hose last week and as such, got a slight amount of coolant in the oil. So I figured, BHG and spent all weekend replacing the offending gasket. As this is my daily, (please don't berate me as I know I need to get it machined), I followed the quick and dirty guidelines for cleaning up the block and head to the best I could over a weekend and reinstalled everything. As I've got ARP's, I torqued the hell out of them up to 120 ft pounds and figured that should do it. I also went ahead and fixed a major exhaust leak, but that was due to striped studs. So I fire her up yesterday morning after getting everything finally finished and take her for a jaunt around the block as a test drive. I was surprised that she had quite a bit more power (I figured loss from the exhaust leak and a possible boost leak on the intercooler pipes). Then I noticed I'm still blowing white smoke and, as I hadn't put the hood back on yet, notice that I'm blowing water out of my overflow tank.

So of course, I'm really pissed and frustrated at this point. The block and head were cleaned up much better and much more work was put in than when I put in a gasket last year. Either I had warpage that I couldn't see, (which I attempted to check for with a feeler and a straight edge), or something else was seriously wrong to have immediate failure on the gasket. I went with a Felpro gasket this time and copper spray.

Now getting to the point of my inquiry. This morning, I had a thought and I wanted to run it by you more exprienced turbo veterans. Is it possible for a turbo to cause these symptoms? For instance if a crack formed inside that allowed coolant to get into the oil passages and then returned to the main oil supply as well as the coolant being pressurized by the turbo itself.

Any thoughts you have on this would be great. I'd do a pressure test, but I do not have the equipment or the experience in performing one. I was thinking about taking the vehicle to a shop this weekend and having one done to see if this might be the case. I really hate to get rid of her, but at this point, I am exhausted and really frustrated. I was hoping to buy some more time till I fix my other vehicle to which I would then use as a daily driver and perform a complete rebuild on the Supra.

Thanks guys.

 

[starscream5000]

Before anyone answers, did you burp the system after you finished the HG job? Did it actually overheat or just start spewing out of the overflow? Got try to burp the car and drive it around after you're done IF it didn't overheat.

 

[xanatos]

Before anyone answers, did you burp the system after you finished the HG job? Did it actually overheat or just start spewing out of the overflow? Got try to burp the car and drive it around after you're done IF it didn't overheat.

Did not overheat. It was running great other than I started blowing white smoke. I waited to drain the oil until I had torqued the head down. Then after draining it, poured about half a quart over the cams and let it drain. Filled her up with 5 quarts of standard 10w30 planning on eventually going back to a higher quality after 1 or 2 oil changes in the next couple of weeks to ensure a clean system. At first, I figured the white smoke might have been left over from any coolant residue, but I am getting water blown out of the overflow when I floor it and 2-3 miles of driving still resulted in a foamy residue on the oil cap and white smoke out of the tail pipe.

As far as burping, I did fill it on an incline and was expecting to need to refill after my test drive, however as I appeared to still have coolant dumping into the oil, I haven't gone back to try it. My temperature never peaked though and at most stayed in the normal mid range as it always has when it warmed up. I wouldn't think having air in the cooling system would get any in the oil though. Frankly I'm afraid to drive it much as I don't want to destroy the bearings.

With having had coolant in the oil, how much could be expected to still be in the system after a compete oil change? I wouldn't think much. Aside from taking the head back off, I'd really like to still fix her. I just can't see myself doing another gasket or dropping a significant more amount of money into this block and head. If I have to spend more than another couple of hundred, I'll just save up for a rebuilt long block from Jarco which is somewhat local to me. They're selling rebuilt longs for about 2k with ARP's and MHG's. I do have a turbo on the way from one of the guys here and was hoping that if it is just a crack or bad seal internally in the turbo, I might already have the solution on its way. I don't know if anyone has ever had symptoms of a BHG that turned out to be a turbo, but I wanted to check before I make any more decisions.

I'm about a hair's bredth from buying any sort of used daily driver from anyone who will finance me as I have to have a car for work. If I can't get a solution by this weekend, that is what I will be facing. If only this had happened in another 4-5 months. :nono: I was planning on having my Rodeo fixed up by then and as such ready for my rebuild on the Sup.

 

[MKIIINA]

Having blown many turbos myself I'd check the turbo out. Burning oil from a bad turbo can look alot like BHG smoke I've noticed (yes i know blue and white but its very similiar) It would be possible to mix oil and water in the turbo if you were missing the c-clamp that hold the 2 halves of the turbo together and drove on it (again personal experience here)

I think your past problem might have been too much torque on the HG (120 is a touch on the high side) and caused a mild leak.

Last thing I would check is a possible crack in the block. A local guy did several BHG jobs on his car only to find out that there was a hairline crack between the water jackets and oil passages. Check the block very very carefully for signs of damage. and good luck!

 

[xanatos]

Having blown many turbos myself I'd check the turbo out. Burning oil from a bad turbo can look alot like BHG smoke I've noticed (yes i know blue and white but its very similiar) It would be possible to mix oil and water in the turbo if you were missing the c-clamp that hold the 2 halves of the turbo together and drove on it (again personal experience here)

I think your past problem might have been too much torque on the HG (120 is a touch on the high side) and caused a mild leak.

Last thing I would check is a possible crack in the block. A local guy did several BHG jobs on his car only to find out that there was a hairline crack between the water jackets and oil passages. Check the block very very carefully for signs of damage. and good luck!

Yeah, a crack is what I'm afraid of which is why I won't do another gasket on this one if it is indeed an internal leak. As far as the 120 ft pounds, I've heard of plenty of people cranking up this high on our engines, especially when running high boost. Now I'm not running higher than stock nor am I planning on upping the boost until I completely rebuild the block. I've also read that you have to go higher on the torque if not using moly lube anyway which I didn't have any this time when I reused my ARP studs.

My clamp is in place and I never took it off in the first place. I was just wondering if when I overheated if it's possible that the water passage in the turbo could be contminating the air and or oil supply instead of the gasket.

 

[starscream5000]

Did you change the oil that's in it right now? Coolant come out if so? You've alread heat cycled the ARP's, so go ahead and give them they're final torque if you aren't going to be taking the head off. BTW, what does the smoke smell like? Car take a little longer than normal to start?

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38797

 

[xanatos]

Did you change the oil that's in it right now? Coolant come out if so? You've alread heat cycled the ARP's, so go ahead and give them they're final torque if you aren't going to be taking the head off. BTW, what does the smoke smell like? Car take a little longer than normal to start?

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38797

Didn't try smelling the smoke, but sure as hell looked like coolant, that and the oil cap foam was enough for me to call it quits for the day. I was late for work and had already been up for 36 hours straight at that point. I'm going to take another look at it again today when I have the chance.

I didn't change the oil again yet as I figured I'd heat cycle it a few times before changing. I thought head gasket retorques were best done after 5 heat cycles?

 

[starscream5000]

If you even remotely think it's another BHG, get that damn oil outa there! when you drain it, look very closely for any signs of coolant mixed in the oil.

 

[xanatos]

If you even remotely think it's another BHG, get that damn oil outa there! when you drain it, look very closely for any signs of coolant mixed in the oil.

Yeah, I agree, I'm just trying to figure out if it's worth me spending another 30 bucks on oil and filter and an hour of my time. Every extra dollar could be going toward a rebuilt engine. I'm pretty sure that if the turbo is not the issue, it is most likely a cracked block or head of which I don't think it would be worth to throw any more money at. I didn't push her that hard and I was getting smoke almost immediately at startup with little throttle.

 

[Ric]

A bad turbo thrust bearing can make an engine smoke oil/water out the tail pipe and not put anything in the charged air side of the system..

 

[starscream5000]

If you think is the block/engine, then there's only one way to find out...

 

[xanatos]

If you think is the block/engine, then there's only one way to find out...

Lemme guess, ummm pressure test right?

 

[Nick M]

Believe it or not, unburned fuel can come out nearly white.

 

[RacerXJ220]

Believe it or not, unburned fuel can come out nearly white.

Which type of fuel is that?


I say keep driving it if it's not overheating and only if the oil looks okay. Get the catalytic converters dried out, report back. Sounds like residual water/coolant in the exhaust.

 

[johnathan1]

He said there was milkshake residue on the oil cap...

I wouldn't drive it if that's the case...And what kind of lubricant did you use on the head bolts? And if you are using ARP studs, then you should follow what the directions say...

I think it could be another BHG...especially if you didn't machine the head. That, coupled with too much torque on the headbolts could have caused the hg to spring a leak...

Are the symptoms you're having now exactly the same as before?

 

[Nick M]

Hydrocarbon fuel. Don't be confused by black partially burned fuel, or catalytic converted partially burned fuel.

 

[xanatos]

Yeah, double checked it last night. White foam, milky oil steamy exhaust. I don't think fuel in the oil would foam, though I do think it smells a bit like gas and considered a possible faulty or dirty injector, so I could be getting gas contamination as well. Personally, I'm thinking cracked block. It's possible my head gasket didn't fail in the first place. Basically, I'm going to step away from the Supra for a few months. I'm taking off all of the parts that I've purchased recently that are worth anything and throwing them in the storage building. There's not a lot worth anything on the vehicle, so I'm basically going to let her go at this point. As the body is not in great shape and I was planning on replacing that anyway, I might as well save up and buy a better base vehicle to restart with. Thanks for your help guys.

As I didn't have moly lube and was unable to locate locally, I went with the 10w30 lubrication which requires higher torque than moly lube alone does. I did also increment in 20 ft/lb sessions so as to evenly load the head. As the leak appears no worse/better than before, I don't believe the head gasket is the cause of the issue. I just wanted to see if it was possible that it could come from another source other than a cracked block or head. I'm thinking there must be a hair line fracture between a water jacket and an oil passage somewhere. I'm still debating on even getting the pressure test done as I'd have to change the oil and either tow or drive easily up the 1 mile to the closest garage and still have to pay whatever it would cost for the pressure test.

At this point, it seems like a lost cause and I think I'm going to cut my losses. I will probably withdraw from the board for a few months until I can start saving and looking for a new candidate to start a build.

Thanks guys.

 

[MDCmotorsports]

Im taking a wild guess you never primed the turbo after you did the BHG job.

If so, you've smoked the bearings in the turbo, not to mention the seals.

Typically - compressor seal failure = gray or purple smoke..... Turbine seal failure = while smoke.

Also, I have yet to see a CT26 with a cracked or rusted water jacket.

Don't give up man!

 

[xanatos]

Im taking a wild guess you never primed the turbo after you did the BHG job.

If so, you've smoked the bearings in the turbo, not to mention the seals.

Typically - compressor seal failure = gray or purple smoke..... Turbine seal failure = while smoke.

Also, I have yet to see a CT26 with a cracked or rusted water jacket.

Don't give up man!

I'm not giving up on Supra's, just this particular engine, which is about the only thing I was going to transfer over to a new shell. If it was just smoke without the oil contamination, I wouldn't be too worried and would whole heartedly work towards fixing the problem. However, unless it's fuel contamination, I'm getting white foam, and milky oil which says to me, coolant leak.

Basically, something is seriously wrong. If it was just the turbo dumping contaminates into the oil, or a fuel injector, I wouldn't have issue with attempting to correct as I had previously arranged to buy a turbo from WeezL. But as it is, I have to have a running car one way or another in the next few days and as such I've had to reluctantly ask if I can back out of a few arranged deals in order to make ends meet. I'm thinking this block is just thrashed and short of a major rebuild which could take weeks or even months, it would not be driveable for any distance at all. I don't want to even start it up as I know I'm doing serious bearing damage with the amount of oil contamination I'm getting. I've had probably all of 15 minutes of motor run time since replacing the head gasket and it's been contaminating the oil for every minute of it.

Really sucks too considering she drives better than ever. I just know I'll have rod knock if I run it too much longer, even with changing the oil over and over. If I can't stop the contamination cheaply and quickly, I have to invest my money elsewhere to get my transportation situation handled. I really love the car despite its problems, but alas, reliable work transportation trumps my desire to keep her.

BTW, to those couple of people I've asked to cancel deals with, I really hate backing out on a deal, but my finances just can't afford it with having to dump my current vehicle in order to get a running car. Hate to say it, but I'm probably going to be stuck in some POS Sentra or Prizm as that would be all that I can afford at the moment having invested all of my spare capital into the Supra.

 

[starscream5000]

If you're going to get a beater to drive around, go ahead and drain out the coolany and oil and flush it out well once done to get as much out as possible that way you can salvage shit from that engine if need be (I'm leaning more towards what John was talking about).