For some reason I don't think that my girl will understand why she didn't get any toys. On the plus side she likes the way my car sounds. She's 5 so she is easily amused.
Cams
- Thread starter corylee316
- Start date
Ok,
I've called 6 different camshaft grinders in the US and Canada to get their opinions and thoughts on camshafts for the 7m-ge aswell as pricing.
like 935 motorsports said, camshaft regrgrinds reduce the overall size or "base circle" of the camshaft, while leaving the material on the tip. In effect, you can shape the camshaft any way you want. The amount of material removed from the "Heel" or "round" part of the cam is made up or "replaced" by pucks which are inserted underneath the stock valve shims. Think of the removed material as this new shim. more lift and any desired duration can be made this way. The restriction to how wild your cams are using the regrind method is restricted by how much lift. When the stock shims are built up too much to take care of this extra material, they can be spit out of their origonal seating position and bind, chewing up various valvetrain parts......this is BAD! so regrinds should generally be considered for mild upgrades.
High lift and and duration can be achieved with hard welded cams (material welded onto the stock cams and then ground to the desired shape (more expensive) or full billet cams ground from a chunk of metal.
I will be choosing reground cams because the head will not have to be modified, it's innexpensive and works well as I do not want to go too wild. These are frowned uppon in the domestic community because of the stock cam casting process doemstics use, only the outside of the cam is hardened and when ground to a specific profile, the usable life of the cam is greatly reduced. Toyota cams are hard all the way through, and I am told there should be no worry of the cam being damaged under normal use.
as for camshaft grinds....advertised duration means nothing. Every company uses a different basis for their cams. It all started when people started copying camshaft grinds mad be reuputable companies like crower and advertising them as more extreme durations saying "my 272 is much more streetable than your 264 and I have the same duration!" more sales were generated. Crower had enough of this and decided to introduced the standard of recording duration at a specific lift (50 thousandths of lift) this means that on every cam, when the cam is pushing 50thousandths, the angle of rotation to the other side of the cam at 50 thou is recorded....this elimantes any phony claims of duration.
That being said, you should only think in terms of duration at 50thou. I've called several camshaft grinders and have come to the conclusion that I will be getting cams from Jeff at Colt Cams:
#54 - 3347 262nd Street, Langley, BC V4W 3V9
Tel: (604)856-3571• Fax: (604)856-3572
he was EXTREMLEY helpful in explaining things to me and has done many camshaft grinds for the 4age lately (same head as the 7mge, just less two cylinders) he says he has been getting gains of over 25rwhp gains with his 223 @50 thou grind on those motors with supporting mods. It may hurt the low end slightly but not badly, slight lope at idle. Should generate power from 2000rpm to 6500rpm, generating power all over the band. His milder grind of 212 @50 thou is the same as the "mild" for the turbo motors, on the second stage their grinds differ due to more overlap on the NA motor. He says the motor should feel quite good in higher rpm. This cost for the more agressive grind is $689CDN with shims. the valves should be shimmed using toyota shims after installation, the intake side effects idle the most and should have special attention paid to it. He has never heard of spitting shims with this setup but this would be on his edge of caution....more than that may cause a worry.
Web Cams are a hardweld option and their recommended grind for the NA is 218 @50 thou .322 an cost $734US for both. I have talked to a local toronto member who has these installed. He had intake, exhaust, mild port work and a rebuilt motor and dynoed over 200whp he can't remember the exact number however. Idle was pretty much stock and he said when running with a mildly modded turbo car, no distance was gained by either.
For web Cam's regrinds you have to send them your cams so they can spec them along with what modifications are done to the motor, then they can recommend a grind.
Schneider cams has two flavours, 264 duration which is 210 @50 thou and 272s which are 222 @ 50 thou. he recommended the advertised duration of 272 for my application. Their cost is $100 a camshaft and $84 for shims. for me, shipping to Cali would be pretty high, and requires some investigation on my part. The grind on the schneider cams seems very similar to the Colt cams configuration. their contact info: Telephone: (619) 297-0227 Fax: (619) 297-0577 E-mail: Schneiderracingcam@sbcglobal.net Street Address: 1235 Cushman Ave. San Diego, CA. 92110
Shadbolt Cams: suggests 212 @50 thou with a .310 lift. He said Good street manners, with a good power increase. $500 CDN for the pair, with shims. You should call barry (owner) for confirmation of information. His notes were messy and didn't know much about hte 7mge at all.
Crower: not much info on this I have recorded that they were chargin $172USD for both and shims would be additional. I have a feeling that would be $172 each and my notes may be wrong, contact them for more information. he instructed me to put Attn: Dustin on the package and he would profile the stock cams and recommend what grind would be best.
Jeff at Colt cams is the only one that seems to have experience with our motors (and a large amount at that) and if at all possible I will be purchasing from him just from the sheer amount of customer service. I am opting for the more agressive reground cam option due to the streetability that the toronto member mentioned on the webcams and I am thinking if I am going to install cams, why not get the most gain possible without going insane.
as for tuning, the stock ECU may have troubles with cams...I'll be installing an LC-1 Wideband and a used SAFC along with an AFPR so ignition timing doesn't get all out of whack. MAFT-pro (rumoured to suppor the 7mge soon) or megasquirt would be better but I am trying to keep costs as low as possible.
hope that helps. I am just trying ot get a grip on all of this so if somebody more knowledgable on the forum wishes to correct me, feel free to do so.
Steve
I've called 6 different camshaft grinders in the US and Canada to get their opinions and thoughts on camshafts for the 7m-ge aswell as pricing.
like 935 motorsports said, camshaft regrgrinds reduce the overall size or "base circle" of the camshaft, while leaving the material on the tip. In effect, you can shape the camshaft any way you want. The amount of material removed from the "Heel" or "round" part of the cam is made up or "replaced" by pucks which are inserted underneath the stock valve shims. Think of the removed material as this new shim. more lift and any desired duration can be made this way. The restriction to how wild your cams are using the regrind method is restricted by how much lift. When the stock shims are built up too much to take care of this extra material, they can be spit out of their origonal seating position and bind, chewing up various valvetrain parts......this is BAD! so regrinds should generally be considered for mild upgrades.
High lift and and duration can be achieved with hard welded cams (material welded onto the stock cams and then ground to the desired shape (more expensive) or full billet cams ground from a chunk of metal.
I will be choosing reground cams because the head will not have to be modified, it's innexpensive and works well as I do not want to go too wild. These are frowned uppon in the domestic community because of the stock cam casting process doemstics use, only the outside of the cam is hardened and when ground to a specific profile, the usable life of the cam is greatly reduced. Toyota cams are hard all the way through, and I am told there should be no worry of the cam being damaged under normal use.
as for camshaft grinds....advertised duration means nothing. Every company uses a different basis for their cams. It all started when people started copying camshaft grinds mad be reuputable companies like crower and advertising them as more extreme durations saying "my 272 is much more streetable than your 264 and I have the same duration!" more sales were generated. Crower had enough of this and decided to introduced the standard of recording duration at a specific lift (50 thousandths of lift) this means that on every cam, when the cam is pushing 50thousandths, the angle of rotation to the other side of the cam at 50 thou is recorded....this elimantes any phony claims of duration.
That being said, you should only think in terms of duration at 50thou. I've called several camshaft grinders and have come to the conclusion that I will be getting cams from Jeff at Colt Cams:
#54 - 3347 262nd Street, Langley, BC V4W 3V9
Tel: (604)856-3571• Fax: (604)856-3572
he was EXTREMLEY helpful in explaining things to me and has done many camshaft grinds for the 4age lately (same head as the 7mge, just less two cylinders) he says he has been getting gains of over 25rwhp gains with his 223 @50 thou grind on those motors with supporting mods. It may hurt the low end slightly but not badly, slight lope at idle. Should generate power from 2000rpm to 6500rpm, generating power all over the band. His milder grind of 212 @50 thou is the same as the "mild" for the turbo motors, on the second stage their grinds differ due to more overlap on the NA motor. He says the motor should feel quite good in higher rpm. This cost for the more agressive grind is $689CDN with shims. the valves should be shimmed using toyota shims after installation, the intake side effects idle the most and should have special attention paid to it. He has never heard of spitting shims with this setup but this would be on his edge of caution....more than that may cause a worry.
Web Cams are a hardweld option and their recommended grind for the NA is 218 @50 thou .322 an cost $734US for both. I have talked to a local toronto member who has these installed. He had intake, exhaust, mild port work and a rebuilt motor and dynoed over 200whp he can't remember the exact number however. Idle was pretty much stock and he said when running with a mildly modded turbo car, no distance was gained by either.
For web Cam's regrinds you have to send them your cams so they can spec them along with what modifications are done to the motor, then they can recommend a grind.
Schneider cams has two flavours, 264 duration which is 210 @50 thou and 272s which are 222 @ 50 thou. he recommended the advertised duration of 272 for my application. Their cost is $100 a camshaft and $84 for shims. for me, shipping to Cali would be pretty high, and requires some investigation on my part. The grind on the schneider cams seems very similar to the Colt cams configuration. their contact info: Telephone: (619) 297-0227 Fax: (619) 297-0577 E-mail: Schneiderracingcam@sbcglobal.net Street Address: 1235 Cushman Ave. San Diego, CA. 92110
Shadbolt Cams: suggests 212 @50 thou with a .310 lift. He said Good street manners, with a good power increase. $500 CDN for the pair, with shims. You should call barry (owner) for confirmation of information. His notes were messy and didn't know much about hte 7mge at all.
Crower: not much info on this I have recorded that they were chargin $172USD for both and shims would be additional. I have a feeling that would be $172 each and my notes may be wrong, contact them for more information. he instructed me to put Attn: Dustin on the package and he would profile the stock cams and recommend what grind would be best.
Jeff at Colt cams is the only one that seems to have experience with our motors (and a large amount at that) and if at all possible I will be purchasing from him just from the sheer amount of customer service. I am opting for the more agressive reground cam option due to the streetability that the toronto member mentioned on the webcams and I am thinking if I am going to install cams, why not get the most gain possible without going insane.
as for tuning, the stock ECU may have troubles with cams...I'll be installing an LC-1 Wideband and a used SAFC along with an AFPR so ignition timing doesn't get all out of whack. MAFT-pro (rumoured to suppor the 7mge soon) or megasquirt would be better but I am trying to keep costs as low as possible.
hope that helps. I am just trying ot get a grip on all of this so if somebody more knowledgable on the forum wishes to correct me, feel free to do so.
Steve
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And THAT as they say...is how its done.
Nice work Steve. Thats alot of excellent info all in one post.
Nice work Steve. Thats alot of excellent info all in one post.
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25481
Why not get these and a set of adjustable cam gears?
Edit: Nevermind.... BC's giving them the run around....
Why not get these and a set of adjustable cam gears?
Edit: Nevermind.... BC's giving them the run around....
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I am going with Schneider because they are local to me. Crower is also local, but I want to work with a smaller company that won't be as busy.
This way, I can use all my cores to get grinds done and have the cams IN STOCK for people that don't want to send theirs in first.
This way, I can use all my cores to get grinds done and have the cams IN STOCK for people that don't want to send theirs in first.
Megacycle Cams will weld-up, then grind to your specifications.
This maintains the correct base circle diameter.
They will not do anything for you if you don't have what spec.s you want.
They are not into marketing automotive cams.
They prefer to copy another cam.
I have never asked them what their service costs, but may soon, because I have one 264 7M cam that needs a mate.
Personally, I would never run 272 cams without going to shim-under buckets.
And absolutley not do it if using a re-ground cam with a small base circle.
The required shims to get the valve lash correct are VERY heavy!!
I have installed a TODA shim-under set in my NA head to run with 256 cams.
The car has been through the lights at 8000 RPM in second (auto/3.90 gears) already with stock cams & springs. Toysport thought stock springs are good for 7500, and may be on a turbo engine (boost pressure works against spring pressure, and lowers the RPM that the valve will float at).
It had no power up there, but it would not shift out of 2nd without lifting after I had the ECU modified. (all 3 clock crystals changed, but that is another story/can of worms)
I do have 272 cams to go into the Group-A head on my twin-charged 7M, but it also has shim-unders in it. But I plan on turning it to 10.000.
I now where there is a set of 256x11mm cams sitting, but the guy wants a lot for them.
When I do find cams in Japan (they are getting rare over there), I have to sell them for about $1200 a pair any more.
A LOT can be had just by playing with adjustable cam gears.
Retard both cams by 2-4 degrees, and you will move the power peak up several thousand RPM.
But you need everything else in the system bumped up to make this work.
Larget throttle, headers, big exhaust, etc..
(I would love to unload the pile of cam gears I have)
This maintains the correct base circle diameter.
They will not do anything for you if you don't have what spec.s you want.
They are not into marketing automotive cams.
They prefer to copy another cam.
I have never asked them what their service costs, but may soon, because I have one 264 7M cam that needs a mate.
Personally, I would never run 272 cams without going to shim-under buckets.
And absolutley not do it if using a re-ground cam with a small base circle.
The required shims to get the valve lash correct are VERY heavy!!
I have installed a TODA shim-under set in my NA head to run with 256 cams.
The car has been through the lights at 8000 RPM in second (auto/3.90 gears) already with stock cams & springs. Toysport thought stock springs are good for 7500, and may be on a turbo engine (boost pressure works against spring pressure, and lowers the RPM that the valve will float at).
It had no power up there, but it would not shift out of 2nd without lifting after I had the ECU modified. (all 3 clock crystals changed, but that is another story/can of worms)
I do have 272 cams to go into the Group-A head on my twin-charged 7M, but it also has shim-unders in it. But I plan on turning it to 10.000.
I now where there is a set of 256x11mm cams sitting, but the guy wants a lot for them.
When I do find cams in Japan (they are getting rare over there), I have to sell them for about $1200 a pair any more.
A LOT can be had just by playing with adjustable cam gears.
Retard both cams by 2-4 degrees, and you will move the power peak up several thousand RPM.
But you need everything else in the system bumped up to make this work.
Larget throttle, headers, big exhaust, etc..
(I would love to unload the pile of cam gears I have)
Attachments
Well, I am going to absolutely forget about bringing in any more cams from Japan, seeing what the Brian Crower cams are selling for!
Now if I could just find a US made billet steel flywheel.......
(this does not include Fidanza aluminum, or the chinese junk on eRip)
Now if I could just find a US made billet steel flywheel.......
(this does not include Fidanza aluminum, or the chinese junk on eRip)
7M-fanatic said:
Well, maybe not, seeing that the BC cams are failing to materialize.....
Are group buys like group sex ?
Everyone gets screwed ?
I guess, I had better start buying up all the HKS, JUN, and TODA cams I can find in Japan again.
I have a set of custom stainless valves that were made longer, just to take up the slack when using re-ground cams, so that ultra-thick lash pads are not needed.
Overall length is 99.75mm.
They are new, never installed because I found TODA cams for both my engines.
If anyone is interrested, I would make someone a deal on them.
Overall length is 99.75mm.
They are new, never installed because I found TODA cams for both my engines.
If anyone is interrested, I would make someone a deal on them.
