Bushing kit
- Thread starter Adrian98
- Start date
Just and FYI Teflon is a Migratory Plastic, which means if you apply pressure against it, it will cold flow, so Teflon has allot of limitations in suspensions, The idea on bone chattering vibration transferring Nylon or Delrin Bushings just doesn’t make sense. Using Tie rod Ends in a street car doesn’t make much sense either, but I learned my lesson the hard as we all do. Poly is the way once you've seen the light. First set I ever made for my van were still like new 17 years after I made them. One positive thing Poly bushings do is keep your suspension geometry as close to what was designed when moving up and down thought its travel, lessening the wear and tear on the rest of the parts. Once I made the poly bushings for my van along with all new suspension, they were still like new when I gave the van away.
I think the application that someone was talking about in terms of teflon was a teflon lining like they use in a lot of spherical bearings.
Nylon and delrin don't make much sense to me either for suspension arm bushings. But I do like spherical bearings for suspension arms. The vibration you would get from anything stiff like this comes with the benefit of almost zero compliance which will allow a more accurate alignment and better dynamic wheel control.
Tie rod ends? Don't you need them to steer?
Poly is the way to go for a street car.
Tim
Nylon and delrin don't make much sense to me either for suspension arm bushings. But I do like spherical bearings for suspension arms. The vibration you would get from anything stiff like this comes with the benefit of almost zero compliance which will allow a more accurate alignment and better dynamic wheel control.
Tie rod ends? Don't you need them to steer?
Poly is the way to go for a street car.
Tim
I will admit that you got my knickers into a twist and I went into rant mode. Sorry.
I'm saying the cost of making a set is not just the materials cost, but includes a piece of all the development expenses plus labor to make it. Think of a wooden dining-room chair. The wood could be considered free, since the trees just grew there. Should the chair be free? No.
That's not true. Where are the development and tooling costs? Who pays for that? You do.
Again, only if you ignore all my development expenses. I bought arms, removed old bushings, measured, drew pictures, etc. That took many hours.
Energy probably has molds that cost $5k each, plus a $200k injection-molding machine (guesses on costs), so they can make these bushings 4 per second. In 10 minutes they'd have more MkIII sets than they'd ever sell. Who pays for the mold? Who pays for the machine? Who pays for the maintenance of the machine? You do.
Sure. If I'm going to make a bushing set for a Civic or 240SX, I expect I'm going to sell many thousands of these. I can make my development and tooling costs back by only adding a few bucks to each set. If I make a set for the MkIII Supra, I may sell a hundred of them, so I have to add much more to each set to make up for the same development cost.
Now, saying that, development and tooling for RK's set probably didn't cost him $50k but it may have been close to that. They're cast and molds ain't cheap to make. I suspect RK (rightfully so) figured he'd sell maybe 20 sets and priced them accordingly. Don't forget that since he's selling them, they'd better be right. That takes at least 2 prototypes, then someone had to install them in cars to test. Who pays for these tests? You do.
My point remains that while $650 seems expensive, when you look into all the costs associated with developing and producing this set of bushings and the low quantities involved, it's not so bad. If you don't like it, your alternative is to pay the $200 for the raw materials and do it yourself. That way your labor and development is free.
Asterix
nosechunks said:
I'm saying the cost of making a set is not just the materials cost, but includes a piece of all the development expenses plus labor to make it. Think of a wooden dining-room chair. The wood could be considered free, since the trees just grew there. Should the chair be free? No.
nosechunks;888485 said:
That's not true. Where are the development and tooling costs? Who pays for that? You do.
nosechunks;888485 said:
Again, only if you ignore all my development expenses. I bought arms, removed old bushings, measured, drew pictures, etc. That took many hours.
nosechunks;888485 said:
Energy probably has molds that cost $5k each, plus a $200k injection-molding machine (guesses on costs), so they can make these bushings 4 per second. In 10 minutes they'd have more MkIII sets than they'd ever sell. Who pays for the mold? Who pays for the machine? Who pays for the maintenance of the machine? You do.
Sure. If I'm going to make a bushing set for a Civic or 240SX, I expect I'm going to sell many thousands of these. I can make my development and tooling costs back by only adding a few bucks to each set. If I make a set for the MkIII Supra, I may sell a hundred of them, so I have to add much more to each set to make up for the same development cost.
Now, saying that, development and tooling for RK's set probably didn't cost him $50k but it may have been close to that. They're cast and molds ain't cheap to make. I suspect RK (rightfully so) figured he'd sell maybe 20 sets and priced them accordingly. Don't forget that since he's selling them, they'd better be right. That takes at least 2 prototypes, then someone had to install them in cars to test. Who pays for these tests? You do.
My point remains that while $650 seems expensive, when you look into all the costs associated with developing and producing this set of bushings and the low quantities involved, it's not so bad. If you don't like it, your alternative is to pay the $200 for the raw materials and do it yourself. That way your labor and development is free.
Asterix
Wiisass;889356 said:
Which is why I want them for my race/drift car. I get the 3D motion you're talking about but i thought that was more relevant to the front suspension with the arc of the spindle, not so much the rear, correct? The rear should only go up and down since they'r fixed and dont turn, no?
Wiisass;889356 said:
And that's only because the Teflon is held in place by some fabric like Nomex.
Wiisass;889356 said:
Amen, Brother!
I will amend that amen slightly by saying my first set of front lowers used an Orkot (phenolic) sleeve "floated" in a tube of 80A. That worked extremely well for 120,000 miles until the polyu was beat to powder by the vibration of the lovely roads. The Orkot still looked new. If need to do it again, I'm going back to the Orkot.
Asterix
Asterix: Its cool, no hard feelings just discussion. 
My point i was making is the only out of pocket money the manufacturer spends is on materials to make the parts.
Same example of the wooden chair. If the wood/nails/glue/bolts cost you 50 bucks and all you have to do was carve/shape/glue/bolt/nail it to make a complete chair, the total cost money wise to you is 50 bucks. whatever time it takes you to make the chair is free to you as in you spending an hour building a chair doesn't take money out of your pocket, just your time. say you sell it for 100 bucks, you make 50 dollars on each chair. the only money you have to spend is the 50 dollars for materials, the other 50 dollars is what you charge for that labor.
There labor/tooling/development is free money wise to the manufacturer (again assuming they actually manufacturer there parts 100% in house). Out of pocket expense is only the materials.
We pay them for the development/tooling/labor. That means we pay them roughly 500 dollars per set for labor/tooling/development.
Now, with that said, of course you would charge a premium rate to sell your designs because you took time out of your free time to make them. You dont wake up in the morning and get paid to make/design bushings, energy suspension does. There business relies on going out and designing bushings. There time spent designing bushings isn't as valuable to them as it is to you.
Say you have two mechanics, one hates building engines but likes building trannys and one hates building trannys but likes building engines. If you go up to the guy that likes trannys and ask him to rebuild your tranny hell say 500 bucks, the engine guy will tell you 700.
The engine guy quotes you more because in order to make it worth his while to do something he doesn't like, he wants to get paid for it. since he would rather rebuild an engine his time becomes more valuable to do something he doesn't like. On the other hand the guy that likes rebuilding trannys Time is less valuable in comparason and will do the job cheaper because its something he likes/doesn't mind doing.
Its the same thing for you, you dont get paid and make a living designing bushings so you took time away from doing whatever it is you enjoy or would rather do, to make the bushings. so that time is more valuable to you because you could be doing something else and in order to make it worth your while to take time away from doing what you like you want top dollar..
But The biggest point that i was making is that you went out and had them custom made for not much more then the set cost from a bushing manufacturer with mass production machines that simplify the process greatly.
If you had all the equipment to make them (lathe mill whatever you would need) already in your garage from other projects, making these bushings would cost you only your time and cost of materials.
And wholly long post batman!
My point i was making is the only out of pocket money the manufacturer spends is on materials to make the parts.
Same example of the wooden chair. If the wood/nails/glue/bolts cost you 50 bucks and all you have to do was carve/shape/glue/bolt/nail it to make a complete chair, the total cost money wise to you is 50 bucks. whatever time it takes you to make the chair is free to you as in you spending an hour building a chair doesn't take money out of your pocket, just your time. say you sell it for 100 bucks, you make 50 dollars on each chair. the only money you have to spend is the 50 dollars for materials, the other 50 dollars is what you charge for that labor.
There labor/tooling/development is free money wise to the manufacturer (again assuming they actually manufacturer there parts 100% in house). Out of pocket expense is only the materials.
We pay them for the development/tooling/labor. That means we pay them roughly 500 dollars per set for labor/tooling/development.
Now, with that said, of course you would charge a premium rate to sell your designs because you took time out of your free time to make them. You dont wake up in the morning and get paid to make/design bushings, energy suspension does. There business relies on going out and designing bushings. There time spent designing bushings isn't as valuable to them as it is to you.
Say you have two mechanics, one hates building engines but likes building trannys and one hates building trannys but likes building engines. If you go up to the guy that likes trannys and ask him to rebuild your tranny hell say 500 bucks, the engine guy will tell you 700.
The engine guy quotes you more because in order to make it worth his while to do something he doesn't like, he wants to get paid for it. since he would rather rebuild an engine his time becomes more valuable to do something he doesn't like. On the other hand the guy that likes rebuilding trannys Time is less valuable in comparason and will do the job cheaper because its something he likes/doesn't mind doing.
Its the same thing for you, you dont get paid and make a living designing bushings so you took time away from doing whatever it is you enjoy or would rather do, to make the bushings. so that time is more valuable to you because you could be doing something else and in order to make it worth your while to take time away from doing what you like you want top dollar..
But The biggest point that i was making is that you went out and had them custom made for not much more then the set cost from a bushing manufacturer with mass production machines that simplify the process greatly.
If you had all the equipment to make them (lathe mill whatever you would need) already in your garage from other projects, making these bushings would cost you only your time and cost of materials.
And wholly long post batman!
keep in mind poly squeeks as well...
there is a company that makes bushings for domestics that they add graphite to the poly to lubricate it and stop squeeks...
there is a company that makes bushings for domestics that they add graphite to the poly to lubricate it and stop squeeks...
RK Poly set here in use for quite a few years now 0 squeaks.
PITA to fit but once done it's set and forget, I use Moly Grease during assembly and when I painted the engine bay last year I checked all the front bushings and didn't even regrease them when I put the front end back in.
Harder materials take a set on impact poly doesn't so remains "round".
PITA to fit but once done it's set and forget, I use Moly Grease during assembly and when I painted the engine bay last year I checked all the front bushings and didn't even regrease them when I put the front end back in.
Harder materials take a set on impact poly doesn't so remains "round".
FWIW, sent an email to ES - here's the reply:
Replied back with 'What will it take to get ES to make them?'
I've already proven that I have no problems getting companies to build us parts, and get a group buy organized (Probe Pistons) We'll see what happens :biglaugh:
Kevin Lake @ ES said:
Replied back with 'What will it take to get ES to make them?'
I've already proven that I have no problems getting companies to build us parts, and get a group buy organized (Probe Pistons) We'll see what happens :biglaugh:
Grimsta;889652 said:
No, the rear has an arc that it follows as well. And for a race car, I would go with spherical bearings over delrin.
Spherecal bearings seem like they'd have too much side movement though. I know the the whole bit about delrin breaking arms sine it doesnt follow the arc, but is not moving in an arc necessarily a bad thing? If the rears could stay planted facing forward only moving up and down sounds pretty good to me or would that interfere with the compression on turns where one side is compressed and at a different angle then the other? And is that where you're going with the sherical bears for the arc of movement
I don't think you're getting it. The path of the wheel is determined by the suspension geometry. It needs to go this way. Trying to constrain it from moving in that direction with solid bushings is one of the worst things that you can do. Spherical bearings will keep the geometry and allow it to follow the path determined by the geometry. With solid bushings the suspension could bind and without allowing the arms to move freely, you're not allowing the shock and spring to do their job.
Tim
Tim
If you have the time, take your rear wheel off and look at the arms. The traction arms are a perfect example of something that isn't a "hinge" but has to allow movement in other directions... They are NOT 90 degrees to the knuckle, and the knuck does not travel straight up and down...
Same with the arm that the sway bar attaches to, the only one that could possible do it is the rear arm that is 90 degrees and will only move up and down. I still would use it there as you have no idea the loads that it may take when the suspension is working hard to keep you on the track...
Picture referance (really huge pic, click on it instead of me showing it here): http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/gallery/supra_bottom_h.jpg
Same with the arm that the sway bar attaches to, the only one that could possible do it is the rear arm that is 90 degrees and will only move up and down. I still would use it there as you have no idea the loads that it may take when the suspension is working hard to keep you on the track...
Picture referance (really huge pic, click on it instead of me showing it here): http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/gallery/supra_bottom_h.jpg
Lol, ok well i'm the idiot. I guess I probably should have googled delrin too. Now I did, and I see what I was describing wasn't correct.
I went to the chassis builder originally talking about spherical bearings, he brought up about the delrin bushings he makes for his race cars (dirt cars, so you know they're seeing alot of suspension movement). Not having seen delrin before he showed me one of the bearings and i found that to be suitable. Now what i've discovered is that entire busing isnt actually delrin. Just the center section where the bolt goes through was delrin lined with teflon. I'm not sure now what the rest of the bushing he showed was. I'll have to go back and see. But I guess i'll just stick to the original plan of spherical bearings.
I went to the chassis builder originally talking about spherical bearings, he brought up about the delrin bushings he makes for his race cars (dirt cars, so you know they're seeing alot of suspension movement). Not having seen delrin before he showed me one of the bearings and i found that to be suitable. Now what i've discovered is that entire busing isnt actually delrin. Just the center section where the bolt goes through was delrin lined with teflon. I'm not sure now what the rest of the bushing he showed was. I'll have to go back and see. But I guess i'll just stick to the original plan of spherical bearings.
Spherical bearings are the way to go for a race car but they will take more work than just new bushings. I'm working on designing pretty much all the arms right now and using rod ends/spherical bearings and fully adjustable.
Depending on what the rest of the bushing is made out of they could work. But if it's a poly outer, then they'll have as much compliance as a full poly bushing.
Depending on what the rest of the bushing is made out of they could work. But if it's a poly outer, then they'll have as much compliance as a full poly bushing.
Ok Guys,
I make the poly sets for mk3 supra.
I have been reading posts about poly bushings prices.
No way I can make a full full kit for $150.00 it's is impossible.
Prices for poly kits are high because I have to pay for raw materials,costs for buying mk3 suspensions,subframe,costs for making molds,machinery(lathe,power hacksaw,etc),machining tips,ongoing maintenance,cutting fluid,electricity bill,fuel costs running around to get materials,packaging materials,shipping costs,ec.
My time costs money,it is not free.I enjoy making these kits being a mk3 supra owner.But when demand is high,working all weekend when I could be outside enjoying the outdoors,I have to make some profit to make it worthwhile.Iam not talking just one weekend,sometimes it takes months.
I have selling these bushings for 6 years and if I was selling kits for $150.00,I would have been broke years ago.
I dont make a huge profit ,but enought to survive.
I was going to make a compression mold for a poly bushing which had a wierd shape,and guess what it was going to cost me a $1000.00,it wasn't for mk3 stuff though.All I am saying it is not cheap.I am not a big company like Energy suspension who can mass produce bushings.
the Company I buy my poly stuff from got bought out by a bigger company,and guess what 15% increase in poly costs,same for steel costs.
American dollar becomes weaker compared to New Zealand dollar and profits decrease.
I am a biomedical enginneer by trade so poly bushings is not my primary job.
Anyway if anyone is after bushings kits at a cheaper price,send me an email.
I have also made subframe mk3 kits .The rear bushings are the same for mk2 supra bushings.
Thanks,
Ronniek
I make the poly sets for mk3 supra.
I have been reading posts about poly bushings prices.
No way I can make a full full kit for $150.00 it's is impossible.
Prices for poly kits are high because I have to pay for raw materials,costs for buying mk3 suspensions,subframe,costs for making molds,machinery(lathe,power hacksaw,etc),machining tips,ongoing maintenance,cutting fluid,electricity bill,fuel costs running around to get materials,packaging materials,shipping costs,ec.
My time costs money,it is not free.I enjoy making these kits being a mk3 supra owner.But when demand is high,working all weekend when I could be outside enjoying the outdoors,I have to make some profit to make it worthwhile.Iam not talking just one weekend,sometimes it takes months.
I have selling these bushings for 6 years and if I was selling kits for $150.00,I would have been broke years ago.
I dont make a huge profit ,but enought to survive.
I was going to make a compression mold for a poly bushing which had a wierd shape,and guess what it was going to cost me a $1000.00,it wasn't for mk3 stuff though.All I am saying it is not cheap.I am not a big company like Energy suspension who can mass produce bushings.
the Company I buy my poly stuff from got bought out by a bigger company,and guess what 15% increase in poly costs,same for steel costs.
American dollar becomes weaker compared to New Zealand dollar and profits decrease.
I am a biomedical enginneer by trade so poly bushings is not my primary job.
Anyway if anyone is after bushings kits at a cheaper price,send me an email.
I have also made subframe mk3 kits .The rear bushings are the same for mk2 supra bushings.
Thanks,
Ronniek
Wiisass;892726 said: