i just hope they make them in hyper flex caus ei have set in my car and umm they make shit hella stiff
Bushing kit
- Thread starter Adrian98
- Start date
Ya know, we've beat this subject to death already... :nono:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59173
For reasons only known to the aftermarket manufacturers, the MkIII has never had the support and parts choices that other cars have. In fact, I've seen more parts show up in the last 5 years than were ever available while the car was in production and for several years afterwards. Many of the parts are developed by fans who have the capability to do this and aren't interested in making a huge profit.
You can buy a set of polyu bushings for the car, so buy them. http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/price/Toyota/MK3_Supra/RK/Suspension/Bushings
No, they're not cheap, but develop your own and you'll soon find that they're worth it. They're not cheaper because nobody's willing to make 100,000 sets and watch them collect dust on a shelf.
Asterix
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59173
For reasons only known to the aftermarket manufacturers, the MkIII has never had the support and parts choices that other cars have. In fact, I've seen more parts show up in the last 5 years than were ever available while the car was in production and for several years afterwards. Many of the parts are developed by fans who have the capability to do this and aren't interested in making a huge profit.
You can buy a set of polyu bushings for the car, so buy them. http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/price/Toyota/MK3_Supra/RK/Suspension/Bushings
No, they're not cheap, but develop your own and you'll soon find that they're worth it. They're not cheaper because nobody's willing to make 100,000 sets and watch them collect dust on a shelf.
Asterix
Asterix;887975 said:
there 500 bucks less worth it for a 240sx? its the same materials used, just different shapes. sure there good to have and im sure they make a world of difference, but you could buy a T4 journal bearing turbo for that money. hell for another 250 bucks you could get a set of Coilivers. Bushings shouldn't cost as much/more then the suspension there in. Thats about as retarded as putting 2 thousand dollars worth of rims on a 500 dollar car.
And before you say "gota pay to play" or "get what you pay for" Thats 100% bullshit in this case, AND you know it.
Lack of demand is Bullshit too, if you started a thread with the title "Full bushing kit for $300", i guarantee it would be filled with "demand". Theres no demand At that price, but theres plenty of demand for the bushings.
Someone already made there own and with cost of materials and labor to custom make, one off pieces was the same cost or slightly cheaper as the kit that cost manufacturers maybe 150 bucks to make.
Im not saying they should only cost 150 bucks, but when the cost is easily double the cost for just about any other car, thats retarded.
</rant>:rant2::blah:
Well i'm going to be getting some Delcon bushings made for NASA, i'm sure the Chassis builder would produce more if others were interested.
I mean an energy control arm set can go for $137 for front and rear, thats not so bad
I mean an energy control arm set can go for $137 for front and rear, thats not so bad
I'm probably getting some bushings, that will be locally made in the Baltics 
Hope they turn out good Atleast they're 2,5x cheaper
Hope they turn out good Atleast they're 2,5x cheaper 
nosechunks;888226 said:
Maybe you should've read the thread I referenced before saying that. I have personally developed my bushing set that is in my car right now. I even posted my labor cost from an inexpensive machine shop. Most shops charge twice this for small quantity prototypes. The setup time kills them.
Labor cost for 22 bushings: 22 x $25 + 22 x $10 = $770. I can scan invoices if you want.
That's work on a lathe, turning these things out from polyurethane tube stock, plus drilling and cutting the stainless steel tubes that go inside.
Add in the material cost of the polyu and steel and it's even more. I've not figured out how much that cost me, but I guestimate it at $150.
I'd love to see actual evidence of someone making their own for $150. I don't believe it since I've been there. Show me invoices, and including labor time. Don't even get me started on how much it cost me to buy each arm from a junkyard, spend hours removing the old bushings, measuring, and drawing. I wouldn't sell you my drawing set for $150. No way. It's called non-recurring engineering, and I cost $50/hour for that. I'm a design engineer for a living and have been for 16 years now, so I know a few things about the process.
Demand? Show me a list of 25,000 people who want these and I'll make sets for $250. Until you come up with a verified list with money, forget it. If 100 people want them, pay $500. That's how it works.
If you think you can do it for $150, do it. Good luck.
Here's another idea: call up Ronnie K or Horsepower Freaks and see how many sets you'd have to buy to get them for $125 each. Buy them and then see how many you can sell.
Asterix
Indeed, that is how it goes. My bushing maker can make 4 bushings for $80 out of Delcon. Thats a front LCA set, but if you think about it $20 a bushing isn't cheap. $160 gets me the front and rear LCAs done. I can see if he'd produce more if anyones interested. For producing more he'd probably charge labor so expect to see that $160 go to $360 but thats still under $500 and for self lubrication solid Delcon, hells yeah! Then again if you're looking for comfort hells no
Grimsta;888438 said:Indeed, that is how it goes. My bushing maker can make 4 bushings for $80 out of Delcon. Thats a front LCA set, but if you think about it $20 a bushing isn't cheap. $160 gets me the front and rear LCAs done. I can see if he'd produce more if anyones interested. For producing more he'd probably charge labor so expect to see that $160 go to $360 but thats still under $500 and for self lubrication solid Delcon, hells yeah! Then again if you're looking for comfort hells no
Google got me nothing on this delcon, but if it's anything like delrin, look at this picture: http://www.mk3ukr-supra.com/Rear arm 01a.jpg
You'll probably be fine using it for the fronts and uppers, but don't use it in the lower rears.
Asterix
LMAO i'm such a dumbass, your right its Delrin. Those are also the crappy stock arms. LIPP traction arms'll hold that.
Asterix;888426 said:
Ive read the thread, i didnt glance back to notice it was you that made them though. I also posted in it, guess you missed it.
No offense but you should read my post again.
First part: I just said someone (now i know it was you) made the bushings in the kit for themselves (one off custom pieces, no mold or any type of mass producing equipment) for about the same cost as the kit manufacturers sell.
Second part: It only cost the manufacturer maybe 150 bucks to actually make a set start to finish becasue they already have everything to make it just need to buy materials and spend the time doing it. The labor to them money wise is free, they charge us for it.
And like you said, the materials were most likely in the 150 range. So they take roughly 150 dollars worth of material and charge us an additional 500 dollars.
Only thing wrong in my post was that it cost you more instead of about the same by roughly 200 bucks to make you own one off custom pieces.
Lets be honest, energy suspension or whoever is making them probably doesn't make them on a lathe by hand but in a mold or some other mass production process therefor making production not only quick but cheap and efficient.
Also i never said i or anyone else could make them for $150 or that 25,000 people have cash in hand ready to buy. I said there is demand, just not for 700 bucks.
Asterix;888426 said:
Thank you! The group buy price for the nylon bushings came out to $750, and that was for something like 34 people. People don't realize that you need to pay someone enough money to make it worth their while. It's obvious that ES doesn't think it's worth it. At $500 (which is an awesome price), I bet you'd struggle to reach even 50 people.
500's only an awesome price compared to what the normal price is, thats about double for most other cars, nothing awesome about that.
Asterix;888453 said:
I did exactly the same thing and your post was at the bottom of the window and I hadn't read it yet.
As for Delrin or any other harder material, I would only use it on the front and rear upper arms. I wouldn't use it on the front lowers or any of the other rear arms. Personally, I don't like delrin for any suspension arms. Delrin and such are only good for constant axis rotation, they would work great for sway bar mounts, but for control arms I would be cautious. Just make sure to check your control arms thoroughly everytime you take the car out. If the bushings limit the way the arm wants to rotate it will put stresses on the arm that it wasn't designed to see and you'll have a failure like above.
I would suggest a poly bushing or a spherical bearing/rod end over delrin. But if it's going to be used in the suspension arms, then just be careful and really check over the arms a lot.
Tim
you could probably buy the material and a cheap lathe from harbor frieght for what the current bushing kits sell for... i can do it. ive done lathe work. my friends have lathes... id just like to avoid having to spend the time. considering this car stuff is my hobby, the "time is money" is a non issue. i wouldnt mind cutting all the bushings on a lathe as well as the sleeves and press it all together in a bench vice. the only things i wouldnt be able to do are the sway bar bushings. for that, id try to pick up a set of production pieces.
i concur about the delrin being too stiff. i could see it being adequte for subframe mounts as well... in a non-Daily driver though. as far as NVH is concerned, it may as well be aluminum.
i concur about the delrin being too stiff. i could see it being adequte for subframe mounts as well... in a non-Daily driver though. as far as NVH is concerned, it may as well be aluminum.
:wavey:Non daily driver. Only track whore.
Yes, the delrin my chassis builder makes are acutally lined with a teflon lined bearing inside where the mounting bolt goes through to provide free motion.
He's build and uses them on pretty much every race car thats come through his shop and on his own with which he set many NASA records in the early/mid 90's . So he knows his stuff when it comes to delrin. Obviously a big solid piece of delrin or aluminum wouldn't pivot well when sandwiched in a control arm housing by a press
Yes, the delrin my chassis builder makes are acutally lined with a teflon lined bearing inside where the mounting bolt goes through to provide free motion.
He's build and uses them on pretty much every race car thats come through his shop and on his own with which he set many NASA records in the early/mid 90's . So he knows his stuff when it comes to delrin. Obviously a big solid piece of delrin or aluminum wouldn't pivot well when sandwiched in a control arm housing by a press
So there's a spherical bearing in there? If so, then why use delrin at all? Why not just use a metal outer sleeve?
But if it's just a sleeve that goes through the middle of the delrin, you will still have the same problems that I posted above. It's not the up and down movement that the delrin isn't good for, it's any side to side movement that the arm will see while it moves through its path of travel. The arms don't always go just up and down, if they did, then you could use delrin bushings everywhere, but the path of the wheel isn't truly vertical, so you need to account for the rotation of the arms somewhere.
But if it's just a sleeve that goes through the middle of the delrin, you will still have the same problems that I posted above. It's not the up and down movement that the delrin isn't good for, it's any side to side movement that the arm will see while it moves through its path of travel. The arms don't always go just up and down, if they did, then you could use delrin bushings everywhere, but the path of the wheel isn't truly vertical, so you need to account for the rotation of the arms somewhere.
I have Ronnie K's complete front Poly kit (I was the front subframe bushings first install) and it works well. I would not put nylon or delrin bushings as the poly is about as tight as I want to go.
Poly is stiff enough, and I have all stock underpinings.
cwd
Poly is stiff enough, and I have all stock underpinings.
cwd
Wiisass;889082 said:
Isn't that what the additional links on the rear are for? To prevent them from moving side to side?
It's not side to side movment. It's the way the arms rotate. They don't always have a constant axis that they're rotating about, if they did, then delrin would be fine. During vertical wheel travel, the wheel moves in an arc both from the front view and the side view. These two arcs are really one, but you can picture it from both views. Is this making any sense, it's kind of hard to explain.