Brake upgrade question

[akito]

Yes, distance between the holes on the caliper is 110mm. I did some research a ways back and some Mercedes Benz calipers have the same 110mm distance but haven't mocked any calipers up to see which ones fit.

There was a guy in UK that was selling 5 sets of some bbk that was plug and play and I'm sure i've seen them off a s430 before.

yhatzee89 - which car is that caliper from?

 

[yhatzee89]

This setup?
http://www.supramania.com/forums/sh...-plug-amp-play-for-17-inch-rims-free-shipping!!

Unfortunately that setup requires 17" rims as well

The caliper I posted was the ST205 Celica 4 pot caliper

Oh well guess I have my answer. Previa calipers it is then

 

[yhatzee89]

For what it's worth, here is the post for those 17" Starion replicas, I'm not a fan personally
http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=97118

(Although I'm finding the cost of having 1piece 18" replica rims custom made more and more promising)

 

[figgie]

yhatzee


sorry to be the bearer of bad news but custom anything that is a one off WILL cost. no matter how you look at it.

 

[Grandavi]

For what it's worth, here is the post for those 17" Starion replicas, I'm not a fan personally
http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=97118

(Although I'm finding the cost of having 1piece 18" replica rims custom made more and more promising)

I don't think these are actually available. That's a fairly old thread.

 

[yhatzee89]

yhatzee, sorry to be the bearer of bad news but custom anything that is a one off WILL cost. no matter how you look at it.

This I know, it sucks for the wallet, but pays off in the looks/function departments.

I don't think these are actually available. That's a fairly old thread.

I think you can still get them through the shop that was producing them, but its a made to order deal, but your right the group buy is closed. But I really don't like that rim anyways (don't like the bolts).

 

[suprarx7nut]

Incoming wall of text...

Brakes have a few performance characteristics to consider:

-Braking Torque
-Heat Capacity
-Heat Dissipation
-Inertia
-Brake Balance

Which of these are you trying to improve? Until you know what you're trying to improve you might as well just throw racing stickers on the car.

If you're goal is autocross performance you should think about this:

-The stock mk3 brakes have sufficient torque in low speed situations. More grabbing power isn't needed with a well maintained factory set up in low speed situations like auto-X. (Even with completely factory components you can lock up the tires pretty easy)
-Heat capacity (major contributor to brake fade) is a concern on the mk3 Supra. I've had nearly no brakes before on a mountain run due to extreme brake fade. I wasn't pushing the car that hard. Scary stuff.
-You need more rotor material or a different rotor/pad material to significantly change your heat capacity.
-More rotor mass can actually steal power and make your car slower. Even BBK kits which are LIGHTER can REDUCE power to the ground due to the increased inertia of the larger diameter rotor. This has been covered on many, many articles and shows. Dyno results prove it. 5% power reduction is common, even in high dollar, lightweight BBKs. Spinning more mass or mass further from the center of the wheel takes a surprising amount of power. Improved brakes performance comes at a cost to acceleration in most all cases.
-More pistons in your caliper will serve to improve braking torque. Do you need more braking torque? Unless you have an unusually weak leg, I doubt it.
-Brake balance is important. Beefing up the rear brakes alone is a bad idea. Beefing up the front brakes alone is a bad idea. Locking up the rears before the front is awful from a performance standpoint. Be careful "upgrading" the rears without increasing your braking torque up front to match. Approximately 70-75% of a car's braking power is up front. The rear brakes only take up 25-30% of the braking equation, but if they lock up before the fronts they ruin the entire braking system.

But hey, don't take my word for it, check out some tech docs from StopTech.
Index:
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers

Brake Balance:
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-s...ias-and-performance-why-brake-balance-matters

There is a very good reason there are no easy ways to improve the Supra factory brakes before going to a BBK. The factory mk3 brakes do the job well with the space allowed. If you want to do better you need to shell out a LOT of $$ for carbon/ceramic or get very fancy with some extremely thick rotors and extremely wide calipers/pads. Again, keep in mind any extra rotor material WILL hurt your acceleration. I argue the acceleration change will be more noticeable than any improved braking.

If you're determined to find new solutions, that's awesome, but understand you are having trouble getting anywhere because many, many others have been down this path before and not found a meaningful solution within the 16" wheels. I know we sound like a broken record, but my vote is yet another for sticking to the factory aftermarket parts or go all out with a BBK and bigger wheels. Anything else will cost more time and money and get you less performance.

I greatly improved my braking performance simply with StopTech street performance pads on Brembo blank rotors with fresh DOT4/5 fluid. Even better factory sized options exist for the rotors, pads and of course fluid.

My advice (even though you didn't ask for it) is to get high quality aftermarket pads and rotors in the factory size and spend all the money you saved by avoiding custom, half-upgrades on tires.

 

[yhatzee89]

 

[Silver MK3]

Incoming wall of text...

Brakes have a few performance characteristics to consider:

-Braking Torque
-Heat Capacity
-Heat Dissipation
-Inertia
-Brake Balance

Which of these are you trying to improve? Until you know what you're trying to improve you might as well just throw racing stickers on the car.

If you're goal is autocross performance you should think about this:

-The stock mk3 brakes have sufficient torque in low speed situations. More grabbing power isn't needed with a well maintained factory set up in low speed situations like auto-X. (Even with completely factory components you can lock up the tires pretty easy)
-Heat capacity (major contributor to brake fade) is a concern on the mk3 Supra. I've had nearly no brakes before on a mountain run due to extreme brake fade. I wasn't pushing the car that hard. Scary stuff.
-You need more rotor material or a different rotor/pad material to significantly change your heat capacity.
-More rotor mass can actually steal power and make your car slower. Even BBK kits which are LIGHTER can REDUCE power to the ground due to the increased inertia of the larger diameter rotor. This has been covered on many, many articles and shows. Dyno results prove it. 5% power reduction is common, even in high dollar, lightweight BBKs. Spinning more mass or mass further from the center of the wheel takes a surprising amount of power. Improved brakes performance comes at a cost to acceleration in most all cases.
-More pistons in your caliper will serve to improve braking torque. Do you need more braking torque? Unless you have an unusually weak leg, I doubt it.
-Brake balance is important. Beefing up the rear brakes alone is a bad idea. Beefing up the front brakes alone is a bad idea. Locking up the rears before the front is awful from a performance standpoint. Be careful "upgrading" the rears without increasing your braking torque up front to match. Approximately 70-75% of a car's braking power is up front. The rear brakes only take up 25-30% of the braking equation, but if they lock up before the fronts they ruin the entire braking system.

But hey, don't take my word for it, check out some tech docs from StopTech.
Index:
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers

Brake Balance:
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-s...ias-and-performance-why-brake-balance-matters

There is a very good reason there are no easy ways to improve the Supra factory brakes before going to a BBK. The factory mk3 brakes do the job well with the space allowed. If you want to do better you need to shell out a LOT of $$ for carbon/ceramic or get very fancy with some extremely thick rotors and extremely wide calipers/pads. Again, keep in mind any extra rotor material WILL hurt your acceleration. I argue the acceleration change will be more noticeable than any improved braking.

If you're determined to find new solutions, that's awesome, but understand you are having trouble getting anywhere because many, many others have been down this path before and not found a meaningful solution within the 16" wheels. I know we sound like a broken record, but my vote is yet another for sticking to the factory aftermarket parts or go all out with a BBK and bigger wheels. Anything else will cost more time and money and get you less performance.

I greatly improved my braking performance simply with StopTech street performance pads on Brembo blank rotors with fresh DOT4/5 fluid. Even better factory sized options exist for the rotors, pads and of course fluid.

My advice (even though you didn't ask for it) is to get high quality aftermarket pads and rotors in the factory size and spend all the money you saved by avoiding custom, half-upgrades on tires.

This is a great, very informative post. What you said about locking up the tires is very true. I've locked up the brakes a couple times on my Supra which has stock pads and rotors for now. I've never had my brakes fade on me, but also I unfortunately have never had the Supra really out in the mountains. In the original reviews of the car from Car and Driver and the like they were all pretty impressed with the factory brakes. With the new technological advances in tires, and brake components in general over the past 27 years you should be able to get even better performance out of them.

 

[yhatzee89]

Incoming wall of text...

Brakes have a few performance characteristics to consider:

-Braking Torque
-Heat Capacity
-Heat Dissipation
-Inertia
-Brake Balance

Which of these are you trying to improve? Until you know what you're trying to improve you might as well just throw racing stickers on the car.

If you're goal is autocross performance you should think about this:

-The stock mk3 brakes have sufficient torque in low speed situations. More grabbing power isn't needed with a well maintained factory set up in low speed situations like auto-X. (Even with completely factory components you can lock up the tires pretty easy)
-Heat capacity (major contributor to brake fade) is a concern on the mk3 Supra. I've had nearly no brakes before on a mountain run due to extreme brake fade. I wasn't pushing the car that hard. Scary stuff.
-You need more rotor material or a different rotor/pad material to significantly change your heat capacity.
-More rotor mass can actually steal power and make your car slower. Even BBK kits which are LIGHTER can REDUCE power to the ground due to the increased inertia of the larger diameter rotor. This has been covered on many, many articles and shows. Dyno results prove it. 5% power reduction is common, even in high dollar, lightweight BBKs. Spinning more mass or mass further from the center of the wheel takes a surprising amount of power. Improved brakes performance comes at a cost to acceleration in most all cases.
-More pistons in your caliper will serve to improve braking torque. Do you need more braking torque? Unless you have an unusually weak leg, I doubt it.
-Brake balance is important. Beefing up the rear brakes alone is a bad idea. Beefing up the front brakes alone is a bad idea. Locking up the rears before the front is awful from a performance standpoint. Be careful "upgrading" the rears without increasing your braking torque up front to match. Approximately 70-75% of a car's braking power is up front. The rear brakes only take up 25-30% of the braking equation, but if they lock up before the fronts they ruin the entire braking system.

But hey, don't take my word for it, check out some tech docs from StopTech.
Index:
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers

Brake Balance:
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-s...ias-and-performance-why-brake-balance-matters

There is a very good reason there are no easy ways to improve the Supra factory brakes before going to a BBK. The factory mk3 brakes do the job well with the space allowed. If you want to do better you need to shell out a LOT of $$ for carbon/ceramic or get very fancy with some extremely thick rotors and extremely wide calipers/pads. Again, keep in mind any extra rotor material WILL hurt your acceleration. I argue the acceleration change will be more noticeable than any improved braking.

If you're determined to find new solutions, that's awesome, but understand you are having trouble getting anywhere because many, many others have been down this path before and not found a meaningful solution within the 16" wheels. I know we sound like a broken record, but my vote is yet another for sticking to the factory aftermarket parts or go all out with a BBK and bigger wheels. Anything else will cost more time and money and get you less performance.

I greatly improved my braking performance simply with StopTech street performance pads on Brembo blank rotors with fresh DOT4/5 fluid. Even better factory sized options exist for the rotors, pads and of course fluid.

My advice (even though you didn't ask for it) is to get high quality aftermarket pads and rotors in the factory size and spend all the money you saved by avoiding custom, half-upgrades on tires.

- I realize that the Supra has enough braking power to lock the wheels and stop the car, I've done this many times in my old '87 when I first got it (I found out what brake fade was shortly afterwards)
-and I realize that all I'm doin by trying to add pistons is increasing the already adequate braking torque, but I figure it really can't hurt, especially if I could fit thicker rotors to absorb the heat. And my leg is pretty weak lol

- as far as the brake balance goes, on the thread for the EVO rear bbk the guys that have done it say that the ABS compensates and doesn't effect it much at all, I fully intend on keeping my ABS or I wouldn't consider it an upgrade.
- the only way to find something new is if somebody goes looking for it, and I really do appreciate you guys lookin out for me and trying to not let me waste a lot of money for a inferior setup, but like I said, unless I find an option that fits my wants, I'll stick with good quality factory brake setup.
- what brand fluid do you run?
- I can't wait to get a new set of tires, that makes a huge difference in so many ways
What are your thoughts on installing the bigger MC out of the 4runner?

This is a great, very informative post. What you said about locking up the tires is very true. I've locked up the brakes a couple times on my Supra which has stock pads and rotors for now. I've never had my brakes fade on me, but also I unfortunately have never had the Supra really out in the mountains. In the original reviews of the car from Car and Driver and the like they were all pretty impressed with the factory brakes. With the new technological advances in tires, and brake components in general over the past 27 years you should be able to get even better performance out of them.

Agree 100%