7M-GTE Engine Response

Freshmaker

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Feb 3, 2007
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Since friction will be constant for the most part: Free revving is governed by one of the most basic physics equations out there. F=MA using the rotational variation of course.
Force = torque, much lower that peak numbers since you coming off idle
M = moment of inertia, weight of internals as well as the distance from center.
A = Angular Acceleration, This is the number that your looking for :)
 

starscream5000

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Aug 23, 2006
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bountykilla0118 said:
The point I am making is that our M series was never designed to be a quick and high revving engine shit it was never originally designed to be turbo but it still works.

For those who don't know, they would be pretty surprised to find out how old the design of this motor really is and where it originally cam from. ;)
 

Supraholics

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I thinking that very aggressive response is achiveable from the 7M without de-stroking the motor. Look at the 2JZs at the track (titan, BL, WOTM). Most of them have a pretty snappy throttle and they don't even have ITb setups.

Not sure about identical to that rotary since that pretty much sounds like a F1 engine to me...

BTW, you can buy that SCOOT 4-rotor wankel for only $100,000.00
 

bwest

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May 18, 2005
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IMO you would be hardpressed to do anything like that on a piston engine (vs a rotary), as design would be the overall handicap (stroke and rotating weight).

I have a 7m with all the fun off the shelf light weight components (JE's, crower rods, ati dampner, alum flywheel, ferrea valves, springs and ti retainers, alum cam pullies (which are lighter than stock)) essentially everything but drilling the crank and running a small diam multi-plate clutch. The motor revs real fast, but nothing like that. Have I seen piston engines rev like that? sure, but they sure as hell weren't streetable or viable (price wise) to live in a street car. If that is not your goal, then more power to you.

On another note, I've had a few small displacement 2cycles (output the equivalent of 370hp/L - 125cc = 47hp, that is not a typo) that would rev from 7k-14.5k about that quick, but thats more of an apples/bananas comparison.
 

Supraholics

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I don't need response exactly like that rotary 4-rotor, but I would like very good response, such that of a GT500 car. I think it can be done.

Now, What I really need to know is what do I need?? Don't tell me knife edge the crank and that's it. Give me details, who can do the work? What ECU? Do you have proof of applications? etc. I need examples I can go by...
 

flubyux2

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Apr 2, 2005
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you need forged pistons, forged aluminum rods, close the chamber on the head, run higher compression, about 10-10.5:1, run on straight VP import, run it off a stand alone, short runner intake with a 6 liter surge tank, 105mm TB, 4" ic pipes with adel-wiggens clamps... that oughta get you started. it wont rev like a rotary... but it Will rev like a Hayabusa. look up videos of matt scranton's car.
 

51Cards

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IMO you'll never get a production sized automotive piston engine to be that snappy. It's just down to pure physics. In a piston engine there is a lot of mass changing directions many times a second, in a Wankel the bulk of the moving mass is going only in one direction, hence it is very easy to increase it's RPM very quickly. Ditto for an electric motor. You're not fighting the momentum of the rods/pistons.

To up the rpm on a reciprocating engine in addition to losing mass you need to lower the piston speed and that means a shorter stroke. The stroke on the average F1 engine is in around 1.5 inches IIRC and the bore is over 15mm larger than the 7M. That is a hugely over-square motor. Compare that stroke to over 3.5 inches for the 7M in an under-square configuration. On a naturally long stroke engine you're already starting off at a huge disadvantage.

You can lighten parts in a piston engine all you want, it'll make a difference but in the end you're fighting an uphill battle. If you're after that kind of response you need to short stroke it and since you don't have much control over bore size there is only so far you can go before you start to hamper overall output.
 

flubyux2

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a 2 stroke power output is akin to a 4stroke of double the displacment. soo, a 500cc 2-stroke sport bike is placed in the same class as a 1000cc 4-stroke bike.

btw, crowers arent light. they are one of the heaviest aftermarket rods readily available for the supras.
 

OneJoeZee

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Supraholics said:
I thinking that very aggressive response is achiveable from the 7M without de-stroking the motor. Look at the 2JZs at the track (titan, BL, WOTM). Most of them have a pretty snappy throttle and they don't even have ITb setups.

They also have 1300-1400hp
 

flubyux2

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like i said, those cars have forged aluminum rods and pistons, high compression, massivly ported heads, large custom cams, small/multidisc clutches like a tilton, huge surgetank manifolds, 4" ic pipes, 5" thick intercoolers..and so on.
 

Supraholics

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The engine doesn't have to rev as the rotary engine on the vid. I would be very happy if it revs as a GT500 race car.



OneJoeZee said:
They also have 1300-1400hp

Joe, at 1.2K RPM, I don't think they are making 1300+ hp. I'm talking from idle, if you tap the throttle, you get immediate response. I'm not talking about a very responsive engine at 50psi.
 

Supraholics

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Ok, so I just uploaded a video of my bike to YouTube. In the video I'm tapping the throttle lightly.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YJtxR1Ot_VU

I sure this kind of response can be achieved as I've heard this type of response from the Titan 3.4L motors w/o ITBs (I got it on video some where). I say I've heard because it sounded very similar, but never got to see the RPM.


Anyways, can anyone guide me as to how to achieve this? I need more then do this and do that, I need proof that it will work. Also, does anyone know of auto-x cars and their setups to achieve this kind of response?
 

annoyingrob

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Jul 5, 2006
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bountykilla0118 said:
You guys remember that old clip of the r34 skyline vs the mkIV? Anyways it was 500hp or 600hp r34 vs 400hp mkIV .... The driver made a comment about how responsive the rb26 was while in 6th gear he said it raved like it was in first.
Mines R34 skyline, and yes, that thing revved amazingly well.

The Supra IIRC was the Amuse Supra. GT30R (with a crazy intake piping looping back over the spark plug cover), made 500hp, and 500ft/lbs.

sorry to get off topic.
 

Supraholics

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How can this car rev like this with these specs??? Maybe because it has more cylinders??

http://youtube.com/watch?v=I-HlrcP6Qg4&mode=related&search=

Specs:
Engine 65º V 12
Engine Location Mid , longitudinally mounted
Configuration alloy block and head
Displacement 6.262 liter / 382.1 cu in
Bore / Stroke 92.0 mm (3.6 in) / 78.0 mm (3.1 in)
Compression ratio 11.6:1
Valvetrain 4 valves / cylinder, DOHC
Fuel feed Bosch Fuel injection
Aspiration Naturally Aspirated


I consider myself knowledgeable on OEM engines, but an engine like this is beyond me. :D Anyone's input is appreciated as this is what I want out of my engine...or close :D
 

RyDeFly

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Aug 5, 2006
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The FXX? o_O
Dude, that's essentially a full-out race engine in a $2,000,000 track test car.

That is the creme-de-la-creme version of their V12, and I'm sure every single part and piece is lightened to the extreme. The fully assembled 6.2L V12 must be lighter than a shortblock of our 3L I6...
It has a paddle-shift gearbox that changes gears almost as fast as the F1 cars, so I'm sure the flywheel's nearly non-existant.


Guide? Follow physics, man. Lighten the rotating assembly as much as possible. Get air into the engine as quickly as possible, get air out of the engine as quickly as possible. Look at the pedal, cable, and throttle assembly and remove as much slack and as many pivot points as possible.
Everything in this situation is a supporting mod; there won't be a single part you'd point to and say "THAT was responsible for the zippy".

Now, proof of each mod's effects? Even if somebody demonstrated the difference lightweight pistons make, I don't think you'll be impressed.
All of these things we've listed are going to make a change in response measured in the *hundredths of seconds* each. It's the sum of the mods that will make a difference, not any single one.
You could turn your 7M into a lean, light machine, and still have a worn throttle linkage adding a half-second delay.

That being said, its not impossible, not by a longshot. There's no curse on the 7M, and you're not at a severe disadvantage by using it.
The 7M is NOT a massively oversquare engine, not even close. With a bore and stroke of 83mm x 91mm, we have a B/S value of 0.91.
Audi's brand new R8, which uses the 4.2L V8, has a bore and stroke of 84.50mm × 92.80mm, for a value of ... 0.91. The R8 has been described as having "throttle response sharper than a Ginsu knife".

Go read the ITB thread over in the N/A section for starters, tons of interesting stuff going on in there.