600hp mkiii vs 07 zo6

[TurboStreetCar]

You think so? You must be an engineer. I've got news for you, engineers do not tend to be concerned about HP/L with regards to engine efficiency. The term in the field is BMEP. If you don't know what that stands for than you have no business discussing technical aspects of engines.

hmm. lets recap really quick......

That would work if we were just comparing total engine output, hp/liter is useful in seeing efficiency of an engine design to make power.

OOHHH, i found it, i see exactly where i was stating i was, or had the knowledge of an internal combustion engine engineer. :3d_frown:

what i DID say was hp/liter shows how efficiently an engine is making power. if a 1.3 liter hayabusa engine is making 180 horsepower and a 6 liter ls2 engine is making 400 horsepower. the 1.3 liter engine's 138.4hp/liter is more efficient at making power then the ls2's 66.6hp/liter, its a gauge. i said "efficiency of an engine design to make power" in reference to comparing different engines of different designs, namely OHV to OHC, witch for the most part ohc makes more hp/liter then ohv therefore bieng better designed to make more horsepower.

Sorry i dont have an acronym you need to know to understand this, i guess your engineering backround just makes you that much better then i am. :3d_frown:

 

[SySt]

hmm. lets recap really quick......


OOHHH, i found it, i see exactly where i was stating i was, or had the knowledge of an internal combustion engine engineer. :3d_frown:

what i DID say was hp/liter shows how efficiently an engine is making power. if a 1.3 liter hayabusa engine is making 180 horsepower and a 6 liter ls2 engine is making 400 horsepower. the 1.3 liter engine's 138.4hp/liter is more efficient at making power then the ls2's 66.6hp/liter, its a gauge. i said "efficiency of an engine design to make power" in reference to comparing different engines of different designs, namely OHV to OHC, witch for the most part ohc makes more hp/liter then ohv therefore bieng better designed to make more horsepower.

Sorry i dont have an acronym you need to know to understand this, i guess your engineering backround just makes you that much better then i am. :3d_frown:

You are stating you have knowledge of engines when you state a method of comparing efficiency. And, you are wrong anyhow. Power output compared to displacement has NOTHING to do with how efficiently the engine makes power. You are trying to compare air/fuel volume to power output. The problem is engine displacement doesn't determine the volume of air flowing through it. There are MANY factors that determine that. The accurate method for comparing volume/power is to figure out the amount of air the engine consumes and use that number in place of displacement in your comparison.

 

[IJ.]

Syst: It was directed at Chris and his suggestion that TF motors are the be all and end all in power output and they're pushrod motors.

If Turbo's and electronics were allowed in TF you can be sure things would be very different.

At the moment there isn't a lot of sophistication they're just big dumb motors jamming as much fuel and air as possible into 8 litres then trying to light it off and attempting to control the explosion.

I'd like to see some BEMP on each of the motors I suggested.

 

[Fuzz420]

LoL @ this thread.

To add more fuel to the fire, to hell with the z06

This is where its at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDoJdQXmwu8

 

[suprahero]

Fuzz, you may want to start saving up for one of those now. I'm sure they're going to be kind of pricey. The numbers do sound impressive though.

 

[IJ.]

^ Impressive

 

[OneJoeZee]

Corvette Z0-who? :biglaugh:
Porsche Carrera whatchamacallit? :biglaugh:

 

[Ma70.Ent]

So, IJ, think it's about time we kill this thread down?

This sort of belongs in the Racing Section too, lol. I wonder why no one moved it

 

[IJ.]

Ent: It's not hurting anything here and the guys are fairly well behaved I'd leave it be

 

[Ma70.Ent]

Ent: It's not hurting anything here and the guys are fairly well behaved I'd leave it be

ok

 

[cuel]

I could of swore that Top Fuel dragsters run 900 + c.i., supercharged, and use 4 gallons of fuel from start-up for the burn out to shut down at the end of the 1/4. I also recall a guy was running a motor 1/2 the size, turbo charged and carb'd., and no one could catch him at the time. Think it was late 80's, early 90's.

OP: BTW, if you're gonna race at an 1/8 mile track, you're gonna need a completely different look at the z06, and how fast you can make boost. Half the distance, and he's gonna get into his power band much faster. Good luck

 

[TurboStreetCar]

The problem is engine displacement doesn't determine the volume of air flowing through it. There are MANY factors that determine that.

DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!! Congratulations! What do we have for him johnny!?

Those factors are what makes a 400 horsepower ls2 make almost half the hp/liter as a 1.3 liter 180 horsepower hayabusa engine. Both naturally aspirated, both piston engines, only difference is the ls2 doesn't EFFICIENTLY use its displacement to make horsepower!

Now let me guess, your going to say, hey, horsepower is relative to RPM and that hayabusa engine makes all its power way up top. Well, ok, a valiant argument.

How about this 200horsepower n/a 7mge 3.0 liter = 66.6hp/liter
300horsepower ls1 5.7 liter = 52.63hp/liter

The 7mge more efficiently uses its displacement to make horsepower then the ls1, the only difference between the two is the redline difference of 500rpm.

Also just to let YOU know, you dont have a be an engineer or professional engine builder to understand how and engine works and have a discussion about it. Your making arguments just to make arguments becasue you have nothing else to say.

 

[Fuzz420]

Fuzz, you may want to start saving up for one of those now. I'm sure they're going to be kind of pricey. The numbers do sound impressive though.

70k, if i start now i should have the money in the next decade:icon_razz

 

[SySt]

DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!! Congratulations! What do we have for him johnny!?

Those factors are what makes a 400 horsepower ls2 make almost half the hp/liter as a 1.3 liter 180 horsepower hayabusa engine. Both naturally aspirated, both piston engines, only difference is the ls2 doesn't EFFICIENTLY use its displacement to make horsepower!

Now let me guess, your going to say, hey, horsepower is relative to RPM and that hayabusa engine makes all its power way up top. Well, ok, a valiant argument.

How about this 200horsepower n/a 7mge 3.0 liter = 66.6hp/liter
300horsepower ls1 5.7 liter = 52.63hp/liter

The 7mge more efficiently uses its displacement to make horsepower then the ls1, the only difference between the two is the redline difference of 500rpm.

Also just to let YOU know, you dont have a be an engineer or professional engine builder to understand how and engine works and have a discussion about it. Your making arguments just to make arguments becasue you have nothing else to say.

I see what you are saying. Yes the comparison between displacement and power output can be made. My question is why would you make that comparison? I thought we were talking about engine efficiency. Obviously engine displacement does not directly affect fuel economy, nor does it directly affect power output.

The way I see it, there are two good methods for comparing engine efficiency. One is power to weight of the engine and the other is power to consumption of the engine. Those are the only things that affect driveability of the car. Basically, who cares about how much power you are making per liter? That neither makes your car fast nor fuel efficient.

Here is a good example. The 7.3L turbo diesel used in pre-'03 Ford MD trucks makes ~220hp (30.13HP/L). I know guys who have had those engines run at over 21mpg avg. Put a 7M(66.66HP/L for the GE and 77.33HP/L GTE) in that same truck and see what kind of mileage you get, and see how much slower it is.

 

[TurboStreetCar]

Here is a good example. The 7.3L turbo diesel used in pre-'03 Ford MD trucks makes ~220hp (30.13HP/L). I know guys who have had those engines run at over 21mpg avg. Put a 7M(66.66HP/L for the GE and 77.33HP/L GTE) in that same truck and see what kind of mileage you get, and see how much slower it is.

Bad example, Gas and diesel have different BTU ratings not to mention the difference of fuel throttle and air throttle. diesels run and much diffrent a/f ratios compared to gas engines and run at 18-22:1 compression, the compression alone offers such a dramatic increase in power output compared to fuel burned. Also the long stroke of the diesels make more torque per combustion event helping the truck move.

Horsepower is for Acceleration, torque is for moving things, the 7m is a torque monster, but its no diesel.

The point of comparing the hp/liter has nothing to do with the car. hp/lbs is for comparing cars.

 

[SySt]

Bad example, Gas and diesel have different BTU ratings not to mention the difference of fuel throttle and air throttle. diesels run and much diffrent a/f ratios compared to gas engines and run at 18-22:1 compression, the compression alone offers such a dramatic increase in power output compared to fuel burned. Also the long stroke of the diesels make more torque per combustion event helping the truck move.

Horsepower is for Acceleration, torque is for moving things, the 7m is a torque monster, but its no diesel.

The point of comparing the hp/liter has nothing to do with the car. hp/lbs is for comparing cars.

Actually gas and diesel engines operate almost identically. Really the main difference is how combustion is iniated. Now you made a point in saying hp/liter is a measure of engine efficiency. Like I have said before, displacement says nothing about the power output of an engine. Such things as COMPRESSION, FUEL, internal geometry, temperature, humidity, air density etc. So I think you just proved hp/liter has nothing to do with engine efficiency.

The 7.3L doesn't have a throttle plate, fuel or air. It has a throttle pedal...

Horsepower is a measure of power. Power is work * time. So really HP is a result, not a force like you say it is. Torque is the angular force applied about the axis of the crankshaft. Torque is what rotates the tires. The mutual forces from the road and tire are what causes such things as acceleration, deceleration and cruising.

I know the 7M isn't horrible in the low RPMs but it is anything but a torque monster.

 

[TurboStreetCar]

Actually gas and diesel engines operate almost identically. Really the main difference is how combustion is iniated. Now you made a point in saying hp/liter is a measure of engine efficiency. Like I have said before, displacement says nothing about the power output of an engine. Such things as COMPRESSION, FUEL, internal geometry, temperature, humidity, air density etc. So I think you just proved hp/liter has nothing to do with engine efficiency.

Almost identically? you mean besides the double or more compression, lack of fuel in combustion chamber until ignition, air fuel ratios that are totally different, different fuel altogether...... they get good gas mileage because of lower operation rpm, higher compression, greater mechanical advantage from longer crank throws from longer stroke, higher intake manifold boost pressures, leaner mixtures by far, it goes on and on. You cant compare diesels to gas engines because they operate so differently.

Ill say it again, Please understand this concept, its very simple. HP/Liter, is for comparing an engines ability to create horsepower (or do X amount of work in X amount of time) based on its displacement, OR in other words How efficiently it uses its displacement to create horsepower.

Please tell me, where, in the above paragraph, i say ANYTHING about Fuel mileage, Diesels, thermal efficiency, or anything else your trying to prove otherwise.

The 7.3L doesn't have a throttle plate, fuel or air. It has a throttle pedal...

Wierd, Another thing i cant find where i said it. only thing close is where i said the difference in fuel throttle and air throttle. Gas engines are controlled by airflow, diesels by fuel flow, i didn't literally mean a throttle body in the fuel line to the injectors.

Horsepower is a measure of power. Power is work * time. So really HP is a result, not a force like you say it is. Torque is the angular force applied about the axis of the crankshaft. Torque is what rotates the tires. The mutual forces from the road and tire are what causes such things as acceleration, deceleration and cruising.

wow..... Thanks for rewording what i just said, another time where i cant find where i said its a force :3d_frown:

and horsepower isnt really a result, its more of a gauge of how much work can be done in x amount of time. therefore as i said already, horsepower is for acceleration (because it will tell you how quickly you can accelerate X amount of weight from point A to B in X amount of time) and torque is for moving things (because torque is the twisting force that actually moves the car)

Like i said before your arguing to argue, your putting words in my post that dont exist, and putting everything into technical terms to dazzle people.

 

[Doward]

I'm roflmao @ both of you.

Appreciate the laugh! :biglaugh:

 

[SySt]

Horsepower is for Acceleration

Those are your words. How does that not state Horsepower is a force? Only a force can cause and acceleration.

Diesels do operate the same as gas engines. Notice I said they operate the same, I did not state they were the same.
-Both have some basic internal geometry
-Both rely on air/fuel atomization
-Both require some type of fuel
-Both transfer linear force into torque
-Both have an igntion source
-Both rely on the expansion of gases to apply a linear force across the piston

We can abstract this out to say the combustion that occurs in an ICE is the same as any other combustion at a certain level. However that is beyond the scope of this discussion.

You did state earlier that HP/L is a measurement of engine efficiency. I disagree with that. You have since changed your stance slightly and stated it is a measure for how efficiently the engines uses it's displacement. Bottom-line we are comparing two motors. HP/L has NOTHING to do with any performance aspect of an engine. I can not think of any objective use for the unit HP/L.

Please tell me, where, in the above paragraph, i say ANYTHING about Fuel mileage, Diesels, thermal efficiency, or anything else your trying to prove otherwise.

This whole argument has been about engine efficiency. So yes, thermal efficiency plays a role. Fuel economy can be a useful measurement in determining how efficiently the engine operates as a whole. So I would say those points were implied by your stance. I brought up the diesel to show you that HP/L is useless, that displacement really tells you nothing about the performance of the engine.

 

[TurboStreetCar]

I'm roflmao @ both of you.

Appreciate the laugh! :biglaugh:

:biglaugh: no problem, im getting a kick out of it myself.

Those are your words. How does that not state Horsepower is a force? Only a force can cause and acceleration.

Because horsepower is THE measurement for that ability. If you have two identical vehicles what do you need for better acceleration? i guess i wasnt speaking in engineer talk, ill be sure to be as technical as possible when replying to your posts from here on in.

Diesels do operate the same as gas engines. Notice I said they operate the same, I did not state they were the same.
-Both have some basic internal geometry
-Both rely on air/fuel atomization
-Both require some type of fuel
-Both transfer linear force into torque
-Both have an igntion source
-Both rely on the expansion of gases to apply a linear force across the piston

We can abstract this out to say the combustion that occurs in an ICE is the same as any other combustion at a certain level. However that is beyond the scope of this discussion.

Besides having an ignition source that also describes steam engines, though i guess wood and air don't exactly atomize.

You did state earlier that HP/L is a measurement of engine efficiency. I disagree with that. You have since changed your stance slightly and stated it is a measure for how efficiently the engines uses it's displacement. Bottom-line we are comparing two motors. HP/L has NOTHING to do with any performance aspect of an engine. I can not think of any objective use for the unit HP/L.

Actually it does, If im making more power per liter, my engine setup is working better then yours. Its quite simple.

This whole argument has been about engine efficiency. So yes, thermal efficiency plays a role. Fuel economy can be a useful measurement in determining how efficiently the engine operates as a whole. So I would say those points were implied by your stance. I brought up the diesel to show you that HP/L is useless, that displacement really tells you nothing about the performance of the engine.

Horsepower is also relative to engine RPM, Diesels dont make much Torque up top therefor limiting there horsepower becasue horsepower is a function of torque and RPM. If that 505ftlbs was made at 5250 rpm horsepower would be doubled at 505 instead of 250. Even if it made it to 4krpm it would have 384 horsepower over 250 horsepower.

Who cares about horsepower with diesels anyway?

Im out, this is getting childish.