57 or 60 Trim?

MrWOT

NERD
May 9, 2007
57
0
0
42
Grass Valley, CA
3-48-5032-l-kgG6mfqkWZoI7xpALGv9sQ.jpg


It's the area of the scroll into the turbine (a1-a6), nothing to do with a/f

"The turbine housing A/R (area/radius) ratio is the area (A) of any turbine inlet scroll cross-section divided by the distance from the center of that cross-section to the center of the turbine shaft (R). For any given turbine housing, A and R vary in the same proportions, so all As divided by their corresponding Rs yield the same dividend--which is the A/R ratio.

But brute size is not all that matters. The turbine's A/R (area/radius) ratio basically determines where the turbo starts to accelerate. A turbine housing looks kinda like a big snail shell. Unwrap the shell and it resembles a cone. Cutting off the tip of the cone leaves a hole--the cross-sectional area of this hole is the A in A/R. The hole size is important since it determines the velocity at which the exhaust gases exit the turbine scroll and enter the turbine blades. For a given flow rate, the smaller the hole, the higher the velocity--but the greater the restriction to exhaust-gas flow

The R in A/R is the distance from the center of the cone's cross-section to the center of the turbine shaft. A smaller R imparts a higher rotating speed to the turbine; a larger R gives the turbine shaft greater torque to drive the compressor wheel (because the lever arm R is longer)."
 

bountykilla0118

In Pursuit of 500rwhp
Jul 16, 2005
1,088
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39
Atlanta GA
Did i miss something ....... I know what the A/R is. Where saying earlier how you can increase fuel cut, lower the egts, and A/F ratio?
 

MrWOT

NERD
May 9, 2007
57
0
0
42
Grass Valley, CA
Sorry, my misunderstanding. I meant that best power is usually at about ~13:1 with all else said and done so long as you keep things from melting and have the proper swirl/cc/pistons to keep preignition at bay. Most people run richer to use the cooling effects of the added fuel, I tend to run things on the lean side, I'm saying it's a bonus that you don't need as much extra fueling for that margin of safety as the cylinders will run cooler. If you don't push things that hard to need the cooling, you will still benefit from the increase in VE :)
 

turbodriz

mk3 onwer
Feb 25, 2006
471
0
0
newyork....N.c
MrWOT;881296 said:
Sorry, my misunderstanding. I meant that best power is usually at about ~13:1 with all else said and done so long as you keep things from melting and have the proper swirl/cc/pistons to keep preignition at bay. Most people run richer to use the cooling effects of the added fuel, I tend to run things on the lean side, I'm saying it's a bonus that you don't need as much extra fueling for that margin of safety as the cylinders will run cooler. If you don't push things that hard to need the cooling, you will still benefit from the increase in VE :)

Sorry for budden in guys. Mrwot yes u have a good point. Take it from somebody who has been at the dyno one to many times. U need to understand that the majority of the communtiy don't always get into the detail of what shaped piston gives them a certain type of swirl effect. From experience 13:1 a/f is on the lean side for anything in boost. You have to take into factor some turbo spike and the what ifs. Extra fuel can serve one or two more purposes besides cooling. Everday weather change can determine the difference in running lean or rich. Just my 2 cents.
 

turbodriz

mk3 onwer
Feb 25, 2006
471
0
0
newyork....N.c
Injectors.... Touchie issue. I have seen injectors fail doin shit. I have seen injectors last forever wide open. My opinion I don't want to run more than 80% on the duty cycle. Just my 2 cents again.:sarcasm:
 

bountykilla0118

In Pursuit of 500rwhp
Jul 16, 2005
1,088
0
36
39
Atlanta GA
You guys are funny where did 13:1 come from I dont see any post where some suggest to run 13:1 or any other ratio. The discussion was about changing fuel cut, lowering the egts, and A/F ratio by simply porting the exhuast housing but anyways..... I am still rich being in the 11's.

Personally I would not push it past 12.5 on pump gas.
 

turbodriz

mk3 onwer
Feb 25, 2006
471
0
0
newyork....N.c
bountykilla0118;881349 said:
You guys are funny where did 13:1 come from I dont see any post where some suggest to run 13:1 but anyways..... I am still rich being in the 11's.

Personally I would not push it past 12.5 on pump gas.

10psi running 11s a/r yeah your rich. Maybe u should read the thread 13:1 definitly came up.
 

Dan_Gyoba

Turbo Swapper
Aug 9, 2007
1,836
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Alberta
www.gyoba.com
MrWOT;881296 said:
I tend to run things on the lean side, I'm saying it's a bonus that you don't need as much extra fueling for that margin of safety as the cylinders will run cooler.
Running on the lean side is a risk that I for one would not be willing to take.

Besides, this still does not address fuel cut.

Fuel cut is determined by the ECU based on air input. You can defeat fuel cut with an FCD, and hope that you don't run too lean, but that's not RAISING fuel cut.

I believe that the ECU bases fuel cut based on air intake and not fuel output. This means that even if you use a piggyback to reduce fuel output, you are still going to hit fuel cut at the same air intake.

Now with a leaner A/F mixture, you will make more power on that same air charge with less fuel.

I can see that porting the turbine housing could reduce EGTs, but I don't see how it can raise fuel cut.



More to the point, the CT26 has some practical limits. The exhaust turbine has a limit to how much power it can impart to a compressor wheel, while still allowing the exhaust gasses to exit. Clipping hte exhaust turbine wheel (Or porting the housing) will allow more exhaust gas to flow, but at a cost of a reduced pressure differential across the turbine. This pressure differential is what drives the turbine, and therefore the lower resistance means less power to spool the turbo up. It's different with a turbine that was designed to be that way, instead of hacked to be that way.

If reliability is a goal, the 57 trim compressor turbine has proven itself to be reliable. The 60 trim has proven itself to be more than the CHRA can handle.

Clipping the exhaust turbine gives more top end power at a cost of lag. It's a trade-off. If you want quick spool, you don't clip it. If you want more top end power, you do.
 

bountykilla0118

In Pursuit of 500rwhp
Jul 16, 2005
1,088
0
36
39
Atlanta GA
i m running 14-15psi

turbodriz;881357 said:
10psi running 11s a/r yeah your rich. Maybe u should read the thread 13:1 definitly came up.

Also biatch show me where 13:1 or another a/f ration besides my post ........ :) no offense tell me the post number or quote it sir
 

csnow

Matthew 6:33
Apr 5, 2005
1,176
0
36
Palm Bay, FL
Supra_Villan;892357 said:
well, i just bought a ct26 60 trim, so now i'm way worried...why are they less reliable? is it due to lack of care, or am i just s.o.l.?

Wheel is too large for the CT shaft. It just doesnt last as long.
 

Dan_Gyoba

Turbo Swapper
Aug 9, 2007
1,836
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Alberta
www.gyoba.com
I sure hope so. I'm not all that interested in buying something bigger than my SSQV.

The 60 trim wheel is oversized for the size of the exhaust turbine on the CT26, but meh.

Just for a given set of hardware in the CHRA, the bigger wheel is under more stress, and more prone to surge issues. I think also, that there's a tendancy to run more boost, more power with a bigger wheel, and that puts more stress on things, so you're more likely to see people blowing up the bigger turbos.
 

89Turbo7M

BLUEBULLET
Jan 12, 2008
120
0
16
area 51
i have the ct 26 w/the 57 trim upgrade, lex afm, 550 injectors and upgraded fuel pump. have been running this set up for about 15k mi and no problem as of yet--running consistently at 13-18 psi.
 

Supra_Villan

needs his car done
Nov 10, 2007
662
0
0
Wellsville MO
mlddjb;892560 said:
i have the ct 26 w/the 57 trim upgrade, lex afm, 550 injectors and upgraded fuel pump. have been running this set up for about 15k mi and no problem as of yet--running consistently at 13-18 psi.

any 60trimmers out there?:1zhelp:
 

7thousandpiecesMGTE

Boostin USA
Apr 9, 2007
469
0
0
Harford County, Maryland
mlddjb;892560 said:
i have the ct 26 w/the 57 trim upgrade, lex afm, 550 injectors and upgraded fuel pump. have been running this set up for about 15k mi and no problem as of yet--running consistently at 13-18 psi.

Tried and proven formula.... I'll be running this exact setup after the break in....(minus the MKII body :biglaugh:) So Mike you will probably have an edge on me to start with :3d_frown:...
 

starscream5000

Senior VIP Member
Aug 23, 2006
6,359
0
36
Hot and Humid, KY
For the post discussing how much power the 440's can handle, we'll look at it on a conservative side.

Considering a SAFE rule of thumb of 1cc of fuel per 1 HP, along with no more than 80% duty cylce per injector, then the 440's would be SAFE for ~352 CRANK HP. Can you get more power? Yes. Can you max out the 440's and expect more power? Yes. Will it last for a long time? Most likely not. Is it safe? IMO... NO.