20psi on pump gas, if you dont know, dont answer...

[dbsupra90]

boost cut will eleminate boost spikes if it happens.. simply set it to 21 psi..

i cannot stress this enough. under NO circumstances run boost cut with a meth kit. instant kaboom.

 

[Reign_Maker]

No meth kit goin in, so no worries...

Brent, do you have that color code for those springs still?

 

[QWIKSTRIKE]

Qwik, you can't possibly compare electron flow through an electronic system to air flow through a fluid system - two totally different beasts
I do have to correct you on one small thing -

Detonation is caused by a spontaneous combustion of the fuel, instead of the smooth, steady burn that you are wanting. What causes the detonation can vary between running too lean or hot spots in the combustion chamber.

Want to avoid detonation? Polish the chambers, and keep an eye on EGTs.

Pre-ignition, on the other hand, is what a lot of people mistake for detonation - pre-ignition is where the air/fuel mixture is lit too early - whether by those same hot spots as can cause detonation, or by actually firing the spark plug too early.

Now, running the engine richer than needed will act to cool the combustion chamber down - but you will also start building up carbon, washing down the cylinder walls (if taken to an extreme), and losing power.
I propose that to run 20+psi on pump gas, one must control the quality of the gas, run just conservation of MBT, do everything possible to ensure no rough spots that can heat up in the combustion chamber (remember, the top of the piston is part of that combustion chamber!) and keep a very vigilant eye on EGTs of ALL 6 cylinders.

That's what I'll be doing, anyway. :dunno: I'm planning on building a display to monitor all 6 cylinders for deviation from one another. :naughty:

The theory of how the path ways open up electrons air or water is the same, whether you understand it or not is irrelevant to the fact that the theories are all relatively the same. Wider path ways increase speed of volumetric traffic no matter what the product moved is!:naughty:

I was referring to a tune of running rich 10.8-11.7 afr at WOT vs 12.8 AFR leaner on a conservative tune and control of eveything by a stand alone. When an engine is tuned conservatively on a 11.2 tune and the timing isnt too agressive show me a detonation or preignition and I'll show you an anomaly. Detonation usually is from bad ignition timing, or bad gas, or leaning issues causing the cylinders to get hot, and if those issues are kept under control through a standalone, and the grade of gas is accurate, and the stand alone is tuned correctly detonation should be controled properly regardless of the type of detoantion there is. Also you don't need to be so rich that to cool down the combustion chambers to keep the cylinders cool that the walls are being washed with gas either. The proper fuel and air mixture at evey rpm level will do just fine. I was talking about a perfectly tuned engine using a stand alone consevatively tuned as I said 11.0-11.7AFR, and as low as 10.9AFR WOT. We are not talking so rich to ruin cylindwer walls either; However a standalone running 11.1-11.7 WOT will not detonate if tune correctly. Agressively tuned ie leaner mixture, more timing, and it spells disaster. So while your correction is duely noted, and it is true of what you say I was referring to the tuning aspect of all of that's included in a controled conservative tune. Yes, I know bad gas, plugs, and other parameters can also contribute to detonation, I was still referring to a conservatively tuned car controled by a standalone with no issues FYI.:biglaugh:

Repectfully speaking
Anthony

 

[Doward]

No, the difference is a very simple one.

128 bit bus @ 400mhz vs a 256 bit bus @ 400mhz - the 256 bit bus will move twice the data.

If you want to move the exact same amount of data (or amount of air) on a larger width bus, then you will be moving at a slower rate - 128bit bus @ 400mhz = 256bit bus @ 200mhz.

If you have X amount of item, being moved through a pipeline of Y diameter at Z speed, you can increase Y, but that will decrease Z. If you decrease Y, Z will increase. If you increase Z you will increase the amount of X moved. If you increase Y AND manage to keep Z the same you will increase the amount of X moved.

In an intercooler system, if you increase the pipe diameter (Y) then Z will slow down, as the turbo will only flow X. If you go to a larger turbo (increase X) then you need to either increase Y or Z to keep up.

Make sense?

 

[IJ.]

Guys: Put DOWN your

Light Sabres this really isn't worth an argument Ant was just using it as an analogy not a literal comparison......

Now put your

hats back on and sit quietly

 

[QWIKSTRIKE]

Guys: Put DOWN your

Light Sabres this really isn't worth an argument Ant was just using it as an analogy not a literal comparison......

Now put your

hats back on and sit quietly

There is the winner...not withstanding increasing the bus speed increases the input out put of inforamtion regardless of processor speeds. Proven way back when IBM introduced EISA technology.:biglaugh:

 

[QWIKSTRIKE]

No, the difference is a very simple one.

128 bit bus @ 400mhz vs a 256 bit bus @ 400mhz - the 256 bit bus will move twice the data.

If you want to move the exact same amount of data (or amount of air) on a larger width bus, then you will be moving at a slower rate - 128bit bus @ 400mhz = 256bit bus @ 200mhz.

If you have X amount of item, being moved through a pipeline of Y diameter at Z speed, you can increase Y, but that will decrease Z. If you decrease Y, Z will increase. If you increase Z you will increase the amount of X moved. If you increase Y AND manage to keep Z the same you will increase the amount of X moved.

In an intercooler system, if you increase the pipe diameter (Y) then Z will slow down, as the turbo will only flow X. If you go to a larger turbo (increase X) then you need to either increase Y or Z to keep up.

Make sense?

This would depend on the turbo, and as IJ, and my turbo suggest that isnt completely accurate unless the turbo is not able to keep up the flow. You forget to add the equation that a turbo that can maintain the flow of air will not see a decrease in flow rate unless it is running out of steam. Even the processor speed makes no difference on the relavance of widening the bus will surely increase the input out put regardles of the speed o the processor. The fact of the speed of the processor increaing the speeed of the data is true but irrelevant to the basic scenario of the wider the bus the faster info between the processor, and peripherals will increase. That's why for a long time Intel was whupping AMD , because they ramped bus speeds up making people think that their procesor was way faster than AMD when it was far from the truth. That's all I was saying and MY A+ certification awards that answer to be true period. Strip all the information you are saying to what I simply said is over kill, and true given the variables to a point, but basicly a wider path frees up bottle necks is all that should be gotten from this. People complicate the simplest things sometimes with good intentions to be right. That isn't a statement directed towards you either so don't go off in a tangent please.

 

[Zazzn]

Cant have street tune and track tunes the same...street should be a bit richer like stated to 11-11.8 max to avoid detonation at high boost levels.

what cha talking about willis?

Who's saying anything about the track? I'm saying i used to be in the 12's before and after a few melted pistons I realized that 12's are too lean for our cars at high boost. 12-15 psi maybe as the egt's would only get to about 1600 but on 20 psi it would be closer to 1650-1700!

11.5 would give me about 1600 20 psi.

Reign - on 91 i would look around 18 PSI as a max, since you have the AEM, you can watch for some knock although it becomes pretty useless when reved passed 4k, but thats where the air intake temp sensor comes in to play and the EGT along with the A/F.

With all that data a tuner should be able to tell you what your MAX boost is not just someone blurting out a specific amount of boost.

For instance when he sees IAT's riseing too high point where the engine will detonate and the EGT's getting too hot he eaither has to pull sime timing or boost or add more fuel. Basically, it's up to your tuner to decide how much is safe dependant on your mods and how good he is.

Rule of thumb has always been

1600 and under for pre turbo EGTs
Not sure about IAT's
12.5 or richer for A/F's (I like richer for safty, as i find 12.5 causes 1700 egts like I said and the only reason was because I was using stock timing... If i pulled more timing i could have a leaner mixture)


Anyways with your AEM you should be set...

Anyways dude take it to the dyno and find out, your engine/turbo eff is way better then stock so should be able to put out some good numbers and make a good amount of boost.

The aem can control the meth very well, it will pull boost, and add fuel if your pump doesn't come on or if you have a low switch in your resivoir which is super handy.


now to say I have ever tuned my car 100% to the best of my ability is a lie becasue when it's GOOD enough i stop because I couldn't be bothered anymore..... Also dyno time is real expensive.

 

[Reign_Maker]

Reign - on 91 i would look around 18 PSI as a max, since you have the AEM, you can watch for some knock although it becomes pretty useless when reved passed 4k, but thats where the air intake temp sensor comes in to play and the EGT along with the A/F.

What about with 93? Do the 2 points matter? There is only one station here that has 91, all the rest I know of are at 93...

Thanks for the info, I'm definately getting another EGT for sure...

 

[csnow]

MY A+ certification awards that answer to be true period.

HAHAHA, that was the very first certification I did way back in the day. I didn't know you were an IT guy. I got a few more letters after my name now
You still in IT?

 

[Doward]

ROFLMAO! Widening the bus increases data flow because you have kept the speed of the data the same - you are talking about taking a 16 bit bus @ 32mhz and making it a 32 bus @ 32mhz.

What I am telling you, is that if your turbo is pushing 30 lbs/min @ 15psi through 2.5" piping, and you increase the piping to 3", you DO NOT INCREASE THE AMOUNT OF AIRFLOW - You are still pushing 30 lbs/min @ 15psi, only the velocity of the flow through the system has changed.

Or in jargon speak:
Bus width = Pipe width
Speed in Mhz = Velocity of air through pipe
Maximum Throughput = Air flow through pipe

With a computer, you can add more lanes to the bus, and increase the throughput of the system, because instead of 8 lanes @ 32mph you now have 16 lanes @ 32mph

In ANY FLUID FLOW SYSTEM this will not be the case. You know what, let me just SHOW YOU that you are wrong.

We're going to take a MASSIVE turbocharger. Let's say a GT6041. 141mm turbo. Metric shit-tons of airflow from this beastie of a snail.

We're going to run it on our motor (a freaking 572ci big block Chevy spinning something like 6500rpm)

We're going to run 18psi on this turbo. @ 90% Volumetric Efficiency, we're flowing 2150 cfm (149 lbs/min) of air.

We're going to hook it up on 2" intercooler pipes.

What is the velocity through the pipe? 1118 miles per hour.

Now we hook it up to 8" intercooler pipes.

Now what is the velocity through the pipe? 69.992 miles per hour.

Did the amount of airflow increase or decrease? NO - only the velocity with which it flows through the pipes we've given it changes.

On our same test, we want to try to get the maximum velocity just under 300mph. What diameter would we need?

The answer, a 3.86" pipe - so we would use a 4" pipe for the intercooler piping.



This is basic math and physics, people! Why are we arguing with the laws of the universe here? :3d_frown:

Speaking of, for anyone wondering how to calculate the velocity through a pipe, here you go:

(4*flow rate) / (pi*(pipe diameter)^2)

aka 4*2150cfm / pi * (2in^2) - remember to convert ft to inches and so forth so 4*3715200 cubic inches / pi * 2in^2 (this will give you inches per minute, so convert to miles per hour)

Qwik, comparing speed of AMD vs Intel based on FSB is ridiculous, at best. Until Yonah came along, AMD's IPC was so far advanced vs Intel's it was ridiculous. If you want to discuss the nuances of Intel's failed NetBurst architecture (which, btw, though the long pipeline stage set was great at scaling speeds, the thermal output simply became too great) vs AMD's K7, then feel free to PM me. I hate to break it to you, but I make the students in my PC Shop class take the A+ and pass, in order to pass the class.

Enough jargon in Jake's thread. We're discussing air flow systems, not electronics here. I don't want this to go O/T

Besides, we're giving Ian a headache

 

[QWIKSTRIKE]

ROFLMAO! Widening the bus increases data flow because you have kept the speed of the data the same - you are talking about taking a 16 bit bus @ 32mhz and making it a 32 bus @ 32mhz.

What I am telling you, is that if your turbo is pushing 30 lbs/min @ 15psi through 2.5" piping, and you increase the piping to 3", you DO NOT INCREASE THE AMOUNT OF AIRFLOW - You are still pushing 30 lbs/min @ 15psi, only the velocity of the flow through the system has changed.

Or in jargon speak:
Bus width = Pipe width
Speed in Mhz = Velocity of air through pipe
Maximum Throughput = Air flow through pipe

With a computer, you can add more lanes to the bus, and increase the throughput of the system, because instead of 8 lanes @ 32mph you now have 16 lanes @ 32mph

In ANY FLUID FLOW SYSTEM this will not be the case. You know what, let me just SHOW YOU that you are wrong.

We're going to take a MASSIVE turbocharger. Let's say a GT6041. 141mm turbo. Metric shit-tons of airflow from this beastie of a snail.

We're going to run it on our motor (a freaking 572ci big block Chevy spinning something like 6500rpm)

We're going to run 18psi on this turbo. @ 90% Volumetric Efficiency, we're flowing 2150 cfm (149 lbs/min) of air.

We're going to hook it up on 2" intercooler pipes.

What is the velocity through the pipe? 1118 miles per hour.

Now we hook it up to 8" intercooler pipes.

Now what is the velocity through the pipe? 69.992 miles per hour.

Did the amount of airflow increase or decrease? NO - only the velocity with which it flows through the pipes we've given it changes.

On our same test, we want to try to get the maximum velocity just under 300mph. What diameter would we need?

The answer, a 3.86" pipe - so we would use a 4" pipe for the intercooler piping.



This is basic math and physics, people! Why are we arguing with the laws of the universe here? :3d_frown:

Speaking of, for anyone wondering how to calculate the velocity through a pipe, here you go:

(4*flow rate) / (pi*(pipe diameter)^2)

aka 4*2150cfm / pi * (2in^2) - remember to convert ft to inches and so forth so 4*3715200 cubic inches / pi * 2in^2 (this will give you inches per minute, so convert to miles per hour)

Qwik, comparing speed of AMD vs Intel based on FSB is ridiculous, at best. Until Yonah came along, AMD's IPC was so far advanced vs Intel's it was ridiculous. If you want to discuss the nuances of Intel's failed NetBurst architecture (which, btw, though the long pipeline stage set was great at scaling speeds, the thermal output simply became too great) vs AMD's K7, then feel free to PM me. I hate to break it to you, but I make the students in my PC Shop class take the A+ and pass, in order to pass the class.

Enough jargon in Jake's thread. We're discussing air flow systems, not electronics here. I don't want this to go O/T

Besides, we're giving Ian a headache

So keeping the speed of the data the same isnt the same as keeping the speed of the airflow the same as a relavance to air flow huh. I know that the data is just bottled necked because of how it leaves the cpu through the smaller bus, and that larger bus just allows it to move with out the bottle neck restriction causing it to move unrestricted making it seem like it moved faster when the cpu speed remained the same. But the relavancey of that that bottle neck and removing the restriction is all I was tring to pass on period. Why we are going on is beyond me for sure. You are way too smart for me but, reread what you have said it is again what I have said all along.
Riddle me this Doward...If you take a straw and blow through it and then take a pipe and blow though it what happens to the amount of air flowing through each unit at a given lbs per square inch. If the smaller pipe off of the turbo reduces the air flow at a give psi, and going to the larger pipe keeps it the same as it leaves the turbo what has just happened to the flow in retrospect to what you siad earlier. We really are on the same path as Ian said way back ,but you want to prove to me and everyone else just how smart you are, and the head ache is that you don't see the scenario of what I simplicsticly said as a comparison, and it is obvious that you are way smarter than me!:nono:

We are arguing the laws of the universe because with Ians setup, and mine a road block, or an anomally has hit that theory, and it has a kink in the real world based on our factual personal experience, and some refuse to recognize it could pe possibly correct in our experience.!

BTW it never was intended to have such a broad toopic on such a small relavancy, and it's obvious you take your knowledge of this and what is being passed along way to serious.

Respectfully speaking'
Anthony

 

[Doward]

Whoa whoa - hold on a second. In no way am I out to prove my intelligence! As a matter of fact, that is a big pet peeve of mine, when someone who is 'so smart' feels the need to talk down to those that don't understand the subject at hand.

Please, if anyone feels that, or is confused by something -FEEL FREE TO ASK! It seriously pisses me off when someone thinks that just because they know something, they are superior to someone. I GUARANTEE you that you know something I don't. True intelligence is being able to explain quantum physics, in a simplistic sense, to someone with no idea of what is going on.

Now then - the difference between the processor scenario and the turbo scenario - if the processor saturates the bus, or the 'pipe' if you will, what does the processor do? It sits idle, wasting cycles, until the pipe is available to send that data again. (or you increase the size of the bus, so that the processor can stop wasting those cycles)

The turbo does not have that 'idle' option - the exhaust wheel can not tell the exhaust flow to go to hell, because it wants to sit still for a moment. That's how you have things like overspinning the turbo, and surge. There is no version of compressor surge in the computer world.

Anthony, I'm not saying your observations were incorrect - far from it! I'm only expressing that perhaps something else was causing the setup change (ball bearing in Ian's case)

Now, as I said earlier, pipe sizing is more like 'fine tuning' your intercooler system. If you go from a 2.5" pipe to a 3" IC inlet, you will slow that air velocity down as the air expands to fill the 3".

It's more important for Jake to stay consistent with his pipe/IC sizings than it is for him to worry if a 3" pipe will slow his air velocity too much

 

[Poodles]

dunno much about aerodynamics though a pipe, but on race cars they try and get a "bubble" of air around the car since air on air is lower drag than on the actual surface of the car.

This may be having some effect in that the airflow travels along the center of the piping and on the walls you have this buffer.

PC design is all about bottlenecks too, have one component that isn't up to speed and it slows everything else down, same on a car...

But back onto the main topic, the only true unknowns here are if his intercooler can cool the intake charge enough to be safe, that's what I would monitor closely. I'm sure the AEM could pull timing when it got too hot, and possibly even pull boost...

 

[Doward]

Actually, yes - that's the boundary layer that up until ~300mph, helps keep air flowing smoothly - past 300mph, though, and the layer gets eroded, and drag goes up considerably

 

[figgie]

Anthony

might I lend a hand.

You are thinking in terms of digital which is NOT dependent on conductor parameter (analog system theories still apply).

It would have been easier to use an analog system

12v @ 5 A through an 18 guage wire = 1 hot wire (resistance is high)
12v @ 5 A though a 12 guage wire = lot less resistance.

using dowards example......

12v @ 5A= 30 cfm
18 guage wire = 2.5 inch piping
12 guage wire = 3 inch piping

the same 12v @ 5A are flowing through each. The only differnce. One has a higher resistance to the "flow" then the other

digital complicates things as a bus is NOT dependant on the conductor (hence why you can 1 ghz buses on a pcb) but instead is dependent mostly on the northbridge cpu and how fast it can do its magic.

Now with that said. I still think "psi" is the wrong choice for wording the max hp on pump gas especially with so many variables.

 

[figgie]

I'm sure the AEM could pull timing when it got too hot, and possibly even pull boost...

Depends on how fast the sensor picks up the temprature increase.

The delco units are fast but still take a bit to catch up to the temprature increase.

There is only ONE AIT sensor that I know that is fast enough to do an IMMEDIATE detection.

Bosch fast reponse sensor which cost about $200

 

[Reign_Maker]

This thread blew up... I'll have to come back tomorrow and read about computer chip speeds... I think I got some fantastic information in this thread... From now on, when I start a thread, I'll just put the "No retard post" disclaimer and I should get lots of good info... Its kinda sad I had to use my mod powah to get a really insightful conversation here, or maybe, I didnt use my mod powah, maybe you guys really do know how to shine when called upon... Thats what I like to think... I like to think that when a supra brother is in need, this community will come to his *or her, sorry about that ladies* will come to THEIR need...

Thanks guys...

 

[TurboStreetCar]

what cha talking about willis?

Who's saying anything about the track? I'm saying i used to be in the 12's before and after a few melted pistons I realized that 12's are too lean for our cars at high boost. 12-15 psi maybe as the egt's would only get to about 1600 but on 20 psi it would be closer to 1650-1700!

11.5 would give me about 1600 20 psi.

Rule of thumb has always been

1600 and under for pre turbo EGTs
Not sure about IAT's
12.5 or richer for A/F's (I like richer for safty, as i find 12.5 causes 1700 egts like I said and the only reason was because I was using stock timing... If i pulled more timing i could have a leaner mixture)

want good information on EGT's and tuning, go here http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28619 and look at post number three. Isnms is the EGT master. Talks about tuning for best timing and airfuel and all kinds of good stuff. Thanks again Isnms.

 

[gixxer750]

Now, as I said earlier, pipe sizing is more like 'fine tuning' your intercooler system. If you go from a 2.5" pipe to a 3" IC inlet, you will slow that air velocity down as the air expands to fill the 3".

It's more important for Jake to stay consistent with his pipe/IC sizings than it is for him to worry if a 3" pipe will slow his air velocity too much

I'm dumb on this.... but... Wouldn't slowing down the velocity allow more time for the charge to be cooled in the intercooler?