Why is my New Clutch Slipping - proper break-in

kmfdmk

Old School Cool
GrimJack;1165081 said:
For what it's worth, I measured my RPS flywheel, it's 0.65mm +/- 0.03mm.

Well I'm pulling the flywheel & clutch tomorrow. Going to just take it to a shop and have them put a 0.025 inch (0.635mm) step on it and check the flywheel for runout. My machine shop that did my machine work & balancing *should* have checked all this, but I'd rather just have a machine shop do it and KNOW that it's been done and done right. For all I know they could have just billed me for it and not done anything.

Thanks for the spec GrimJack.

BTW. Having a slightly larger step (0.025) instead of the 0.022 that rebuiltautoengines.com or the 0.020 that Aaron (driftmotion) told me wouldn't really do anything other than provide a bit more clamping force right? Of course I know it's not going to increase the pressure, just insure that there is enough material present for the clutch to properly load the clutch disc.

Is that crazy talk, or should I just have it machined to the recommended 0.022. I was thinking 0.025 (because it's really close to GrimJack's spec, and it's an easy round number for the machine shop).

I just want to get my car running strong so I can beat on it. For the money I've spent I could have bought a 5-spd, TT MKIV (with high miles and bad seals probably) :lol
 

suprasupra

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Jul 15, 2009
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I am having the exact same problem as the original thread starter with my 87 turbo with w58 swap. I have the clutchmasters stage 2 disc and pressure plate with a freshly machined stock flywheel including the step and properly adjusted freeplay. Has anyone had this problem and actually resolved it? I'm thinking that the disc and pressure plate are just junk, what else could it be?
 

OneJArpus

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IIRC the step is .020 i'll double check on that...


During the break in period did you do city driving 500+ miles? Stop & Go, man gear shifts, many stop and go starts with out burning the clutch. Also, is your clutch pedal adjusted properly. Maybe it isn't fully letting go of the pressure plate to apply full pressure. I don't know, i'd say pull it apart and see whats going on. Maybe you glazed the clutch.
 

destrux

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suprasupra;1745608 said:
I am having the exact same problem as the original thread starter with my 87 turbo with w58 swap. I have the clutchmasters stage 2 disc and pressure plate with a freshly machined stock flywheel including the step and properly adjusted freeplay. Has anyone had this problem and actually resolved it? I'm thinking that the disc and pressure plate are just junk, what else could it be?

The kevlar full faced discs are super sensitive to proper break-in. You NEED to take it easy on it for the break in, or you will ruin it. If you take it easy on it now, it may recover... but it may not. If it keeps slipping, you don't need to replace the pressure plate, just the disc. Either run a carbon ceramic 6 puck sprung hub disc (spec, ACT, comp clutch, whatever..) or use a stock style disc. The stock style disc will hold plenty of power, and will help prevent your W58 from grenading. I'm running a stock disc with a comp clutch stage 4 PP behind my 1JZ and it's holding up, but it doesn't like repeated launches... I had it smoking once, but it recovered after a few days of taking it easy.

To the OP: Assuming your pressure plate bolts aren't falling out. I agree it could be a bad flywheel step. The result of incorrect step is that it moves the pressure plate past it's ideal operating range and results in a sharp dropoff of clamping force. It's the same thing that causes a clutch to start slipping for no apparent reason right before the disc wears into the rivets. There used to be an article on the ACT website about this, not sure if it's still there or not. It requires a pretty huge screwup in the step to cause much of a problem though. I'd also check for binding on the collar that the release bearing rides on, and for any binding on any of the release system parts. It could also be the pressure plate itself is defective (binding or weak), but that's really rare.

Personally.. despite the warnings of proper break in on ceramic metallic discs... I've never done it. The paperwork that came with the very first ACT 6-puck disc I ever bought, back in 2002, said there was no break-in required. It also said that the properties of the disc were that if it did heat up from slipping, that it would grip even harder (and that was the case, if you tried to slip it more than a little, it would just grab harder and either break something or GO). I beat on that clutch from day one and it lasted over 100K miles. Organic and kevlar discs are another story, they need a break-in for the resin that holds the fibers together to properly cure.
 

suprasupra

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Jul 15, 2009
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Jones, MI
The disc I'm using is a ceramic 6 puck, Here is the exact setup I bought. My motor has typical mods and makes about 300hp at 14-16 psi but it slips well below that (4-7psi at 3500+rpm). I put a new input shaft seal in the w58 and re sealed the front bearing cover to prevent any oil from getting on the new setup, and put a very conservative film of grease on the input shaft splines and the throwout bearing tube. It seems like it would be very unlikely to have any preload keeping the pressure plate from fully engaging unless you bled the clutch and then after that you lengthened the master cylinder push rod. I was very careful to keep the clutch setup clean when installing. I'm thinking somehow oil or grease got on one of the surfaces after I installed it or its more likely just a lousy clutch, but since I don't know for sure I won't count anything out. I will be pulling the transmission back out sometime this week I and see what I find and maybe post pictures.
 

ForcedTorque

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Your problem could be related to the non-turbo transmission. I know it has been done before, but I believe 300 is about the limit on it. Take into consideration that they are not getting any newer.
 

suprasupra

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MDCmotorsports;1745970 said:
I had the exact problem you are describing back in the day. Turned out to be a leaky rear main seal....

Rear seal?? Could you give me a little more detail because I don't understand how the rear seal leaking could cause clutch slip?

And ForcedTorque, your point is well taken, but I don't think its possible for the transmission itself to "slip" without stripped splines or broken gear teeth which would make a lot of crunchy noise. But like I said before I won't count anything out yet because I just don't know. I have this sinking feeling that I made a mistake buying a cheap clutch from ebay.
 
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MDCmotorsports

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suprasupra;1746010 said:
Rear seal?? Could you give me a little more detail because I don't understand how the rear seal leaking could cause clutch slip?

And ForcedTorque, your point is well taken, but I don't think its possible for the transmission itself to "slip" without stripped splines or broken gear teeth which would make a lot of crunchy noise. But like I said before I won't count anything out yet because I just don't know. I have this sinking feeling that I made a mistake buying a cheap clutch from ebay.
Rear main was throwing engine oil all over the flywheel and disk.
 

suprasupra

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Jul 15, 2009
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Right, after I posted that I realized he meant the engine seal, not the transmission.

Anyway I pulled the clutch out and there was nothing obviously wrong with it, so I threw in a used stock replacement in it just to see what would happen and it slipped just as bad. My next step is going to be ordering a clutch from driftmotion so I know I'm getting a quality piece and try that out
 

GrimJack

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Did you replace the flywheel at the same time as you put the used stock replacement back in?

I'm reasonably certain the flywheel was the culprit for the OP, as it was the last thing he was going to check, and he hasn't posted since, I'm assuming that fixed it.
 

suprasupra

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Jul 15, 2009
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Jones, MI
The flywheel was machined before I put the first clutch in and just barely has smoothed out the machining lines. probably has about 75 miles or less on it. It was all clean of oil or grease when I pulled it apart. I ordered a clutch from Driftmotion that is supposed to handle 375 foot pounds of torque which is probably near the operational limit of a stock w58. My car ran 13.6@103 and 3800 pounds (including me) with the a340e, hardly earth shattering stuff, so I feel I should be well within the operational limits of both the clutch and the transmission.
 

suprasupra

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Jul 15, 2009
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Jones, MI
The backstep looks good though I haven't actually measured it, if it is supposed to be .020 I believe it looks to be at least that. It was done by a reputable machine shop. I have serious doubts that the thread starters problem was cured by adding another .002 to .005 to the backstep. It would have been nice of him to let us know how it turned out in the end. When I searched and found this thread and read his description of the problem I was excited because it described my exact symptoms, but then the thread ended with no conclusion.
 

suprasupra

New Member
Jul 15, 2009
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Jones, MI
Well the clutch I got from Driftmotion cured my problem. Avoid the cheap low quality w58 clutches on ebay unless you want to be a sucker like me.