why can't people determine the difference between fact and opinion?

rakkasan

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Mar 31, 2005
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fact
noun
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.
5. Law . Often, facts. an actual or alleged event or circumstance, as distinguished from its legal effect or consequence.

VS.

o·pin·ion
noun
1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3. the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.
4. Law . the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
5. a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion.


It cracks me up when people try to state that their opinion is "right" and there's no disputing them. Can we not, as a collective whole, determine the difference between fact and opinion? That's sad if so.

In my own OPINION, because I haven't determined any facts :naughty:, a majority of the reason the MKIII community suffer such a black eye is induced by us. People state stuff as fact, when it is nothing more than an uneducated opinion, and the rest of the world takes it as gospel. Further, new inductees into MKIII ownership who are here to learn about MKIII's might stumble across some complete BS, take it as gospel and severely hamper what they have set out to do.

One question I have is what drives someone to so vehemently push opinion instead of seeking the facts? I guess there are several reasons, but none of them make any sense to me. One Hypothesis I have is that they are trying to earn respect, yet (again) my opinion, it's counter-productive to what they're trying to do. For instance, not many here can deny that guys like IJ, Jeff Lange, Aaron, Mike, Dave, Sheaff, et al are highly respected guys because they have developed a deep knowledge of our beloved MKIII's and they tend to share their knowledge. Jetjock isn't high on my friends list (I'm sure I'm not on his either), yet I respect the hell out of him because he knows the electrical and HVAC system better than anyone I know.

Contrary, when people state opinion as fact, is it not easy to see? When it is noticed, does it bolster ones credibility?

Sorry for the rant, but I view Supramania's collective ability of separating fact from opinion as the one item separates Supramania from the rest of the cesspool Supra centric forums.
 
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mkiii222

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Mar 31, 2005
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Problems with SF???

As for why they don't know the difference I think you hit the nail on the head. New owners come in and try to gain respect by regurgitating things they've heard or been told. SM seems to stay on top of opinion based help better than most.
 

rakkasan

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mkiii222;1849192 said:
Problems with SF???

No, mainly refering to people here. I haven't been on SF in at least 5 years, undoubtedly more....

mkiii222;1849192 said:
As for why they don't know the difference I think you hit the nail on the head. New owners come in and try to gain respect by regurgitating things they've heard or been told. SM seems to stay on top of opinion based help better than most.

LOL, one of my favorites. I love when someone paints themselves as subject matter experts by creating a how-to thread, and the thread is half filled with links to other members info and the other half is baseless opinion that is just flat wrong.
 

te72

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I can count on one hand the number of car (or in general) forums that do NOT make me want to headbutt a wall until I pass out from the stupidity of others. SM is one of them. If not for all the old timers around here, this place might not be any different than any other forum, and you probably wouldn't see me on here much, but I love this place. :)

Hence, I try not to post much in the tech sections. I (don't) know better. :p
 

jetjock

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Jul 11, 2005
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It's simple: people don't know what they don't know. That and you have mostly kids owning the car and kids these days know crap about cars.

Btw after a little research I've also come to respect you a great deal. In short I was wrong about you. Fwiw.

te72;1849215 said:
I can count on one hand the number of car (or in general) forums that do NOT make me want to headbutt a wall until I pass out from the stupidity of others. SM is one of them.

Man aint' that the truth. SM is far from immune though.
 

te72

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JJ, the internet has been very much a mixed blessing in this respect. Before the internet, if you wanted to know something about a car, you either had to learn the hard way (trial/error, or as an apprentice), until you got it right, or give up at some point. I'll admit my knowledge of cars is basically limited to how the mechanical aspects work. Everything else might as well be voodoo to me, but learning ALL about cars hasn't really appealed to me as a hobby. Understanding the mechanical side of it has just been the necessity, due to my love of driving and my relatively limited budget to enjoy driving.

My only complaint about kids ("kids" being relative, I'm sure a lot of you have shoes my age) these days, when it comes to cars, is a lack of patience. If they would just stick to a project, eventually they would have something nice to show for their efforts...

If anyone wants evidence, how many 500hp Supras were there before say, the year 2000? If they weren't built by one of the bigger shops/tuning companies, they weren't exactly falling off trees... but now, if you can't hit 500hp, you're probably not really trying that hard.
 

IJ.

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Mar 30, 2005
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A lot of it is people that think they know everything and are unwilling to accept there's always something to learn!

I've been playing cars for 30+ years and pick up something new just about every day!
 

Typhoon

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I think it comes from the different eras. Younger people tend to assume the internet is always right no matter what. Quick, easy to obtain answers are a lot easier to go with than actually spending time researching something. Witness all the MHG's that are fitted to Supras without proper machine work for example.
I can't speak for all the older guys out there (many who are formally trained), but I got all my knowledge by reading workshop manuals when I didn't understand something, putting together an hypothesis and trying theory out on my own vehicles.I also didn't confine myself to learning about cars, if it had an engine, I needed to know about it.
Now I'm at the stage I can look at a mechanical object and work out how the drive/stress is transmitted, what engineering principles were used etc. It just takes time and a hunger for real knowledge.
 

MkIII FTW

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Being young myself, its sad to be in a generational block where I don't particularly fit in. Typhoon is absolutely right, most younger people only want things that are easy to obtain. I remember just the other day I was in the middle of a Physics lab with a group of people just the other day. While I was trying to have an educated discussion about the lab and doing real analysis the rest of the group members kept on badgering about just me giving them the answers.... the same mentality that I saw then was the same that I see here.
A lot of these kids have a convoluted sense of reasoning which is why there will be difficulty for people to distinguish facts from opinion.
 

Typhoon

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MkIII FTW;1850189 said:
While I was trying to have an educated discussion about the lab and doing real analysis the rest of the group members kept on badgering about just me giving them the answers.... the same mentality that I saw then was the same that I see here.
A lot of these kids have a convoluted sense of reasoning which is why there will be difficulty for people to distinguish facts from opinion.

You know what the scary thing is? In 20-25 years, these morons will be running businesses and god help us, countries.....
 

te72

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Typhoon;1850767 said:
You know what the scary thing is? In 20-25 years, these morons will be ruining businesses and god help us, countries.....
Fixed that for you.
 

Jeff Lange

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My name was mentioned, my name was mentioned!

For what it's worth, I don't have an opinion on anything. Facts or bust. (Just kidding).

This is not something specific to automobiles, or even the internet. There are a ton of people out there that say things as if they are facts. Conversing with them can be quite frustrating, especially when you know it's simply not the case. Frustrating indeed.

Jeff
 
Oct 11, 2005
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I help organize a large technical conference every year. Part of the conference is focused on various student competitions. I was very impressed with several entries this year, (and not all the winners were foreign students). While there is plenty of evidence to the contrary on this site, there are still smart young kids out there who will do well if given a chance.
 

MkIII FTW

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I agree there are still smart individuals that will have a yearning for knowledge, but most of what we are seeing is a compilation of those who don't. You are right Typhoon.....it is scary. I've recently adopted a new quote from an older engineer that I know really well, "My favorite answers are the ones that can't be found in the back of the the textbooks."