Why arent we making 1500 HP?

[KeithH]

If you really do your research you will see that the Supras making 800+whp are actually not as common as you think - and the biggest of the big numbers are coming with the stroker motors now.

The vast majority of the MkIII drivers just don't have the dedication to do this with the 7MGTE - notice I didn't mention money.

Can the 7MGTE handle 1000+? Sure... there are even 4-Cyl cars out there with nearly 1000whp and two fewer cyls. Is the 7MGTE going to be efficient at that level? We won't even bring in the reliability question.

Why do you really need that much hp anyway? At some point you just can't even get that power to the ground in any usable form.

You clearly don't need that kind of power for a road course or autoX. In 2003 we had a track day in Vegas and the worst handling cars out there were also the highest horsepower.

Drag racing? There are plenty of other things to focus on ffirst to get the power to the ground BEFORE rushing out and upping the hp to those lofty levels.

The only need for that kind of power is if you are simply a dyno queen - and while I enjoy watching those princesses primp and pose on the rollers it does get a bit boring after a while.

Just my $0.50

If you want to see some serious numbers out of a 7MGTE make sure you are in Vegas this fall for the MkIII Dyno Smackdown. Tony Orta dropped 822whp last year and is hoping to top his own numbers. Bryan is also planning to make the trek out from the East to do battle on the rollers with Tony. Can someone hit 1000whp this year? You'll have to wait and see.

 

[IJ.]

really there was post a wheil back on one of the froms i go to and he got the 1.5 to fit with out re sizeing i wounder what he did or if it was just bs

Nash: He may have been able to squeeze them in but without laying the Combustion Chamber back they would be badly shrouded so a waste of time and you can only open the CC up so much due to the 83mm bore size.

Keith: Agreed I can't hook up 500 genuine rwhp on low profile street tires in the first 3 gears!

 

[Supracentral]

I'll throw my .$02 in on this.

Quite a few of you guys know the motors I've built. There's no rocket science in building a 800, 1200 or 1500 hp motor. It's doable. It's VERY expensive, and a lot of compromises need to be made along the way. (And anyone who thinks you can make that kind of power "on the cheap" needs to put down the pipe...)

It's easy to sink $50K or $100K into a car. It can happen in no time. I've seen plenty of owners look back on projects and ask "how the hell did I wind up doing this to myself?"

But I digress, I guess the point is dedication, time & money are all things required in large quantities to do it right. And then there's the matter of whether or not you want to do it at all.

And then what to do with all that power? In my personal experience, anything over 600 at the wheels is VERY hard to hook on the street, regardless of how good your tires & suspension are. Remember streets are not prepped like the drag track.

How many people here have driven a 600 rwhp car? 700? 1200?

Having driven everything from stock to insane, I'll tell you most people will kill themselves @ 600+ rwhp in very short order.

Also driveablility, emissions, longevity, etc. they all suffer. While I won't say it's not possible to street drive a 1000 hp car (I've done it) it's not exactly streetable. Willing to put up with the grief?

So to answer the question as to "why" there aren't more motors like this, think about who you need as an owner to make it happen. They need to have the dedication, time and money to build something that has limited use, isn't really a whole lot of fun to drive in traffic and really can't be driven daily. How many people here can handle those requirements? Not to mention the stock drivetrain can't hold up to the power we are talking about. Ready to dish out thousands for a TH400 or a 2 speed PowerGlide? Ready to have only 2 or 3 gears? Ready to run nothing but race gas from now on? How many people have 55 gallon drums of VP import in the garage? Willing to do so? You are going to need it.

I don't think the limitations are technical.

 

[Yeahdoug]

I plan to push my motor to the limit and probably break it.

 

[turbodriz]

you have a lot of good points S.C. This is something that I asked my self. But at the same token I have driven a couple of fast cars. I have seen alot of guys too who had high power cars and still could'nt turn good times in the 1/4 mile.

 

[NashMan]

i just want 500 550 hp on pump gas and 600 on c16 just for number cause c16 is bloody exp

but see i use my car at the drags and auto x and mini sprints

but i just wana push the most power i can on pump 94 gas

 

[DEFIANT 7M]

I have put 2JZ valves in without cutting them down. Also my head flows a lot more than most modified 2J heads. There is close to 100 hrs in my head right now. By no stretch was this part of my build cheap. What is in the head labor and valvetrain I could almost buy another MKIII. These are some old pics, we just started the madness.LOL

 

[IJ.]

500+ rwhp

11 litres per 100 km/21.4 mpg

48c litre fuel/$1.80 usd gallon 104 octane fuel

Amazing throttle response and drivability

It's taken as noted by Mike a lot of dedication+$$$ to get to this point and I'll back it down to 500rwhp and be content that it's faster then any production car in Australia and will run with anything but the most highly modified race/street cars here!

I pushed the limits with my combination now knowing this I can make it live long term.

 

[zurud]

1.80 usd for 1 gallon 104 octane gas .That is really cheap gas. How do guys manage that?

 

[IJ.]

Fuel not "Gas"

LPG

 

[Nick M]

Nick: I was referring to the massive open water jackets around the cylinders where 90% of our head gaskets fail. No offense meant but when I search for BHG I get like 476 threads here.. :dunno:

Water jackets are standard issue on just about everything. The newer stuff, even the Celica 2ZZFE is designed different, more for squeezing everything out of the car they can.

Super high horsepower wasn't the design, therefore, it isn't a flaw that it doesn't produce. Make sense?

No offense was taken.

 

[Nick M]

I have put 2JZ valves in without cutting them down. Also my head flows a lot more than most modified 2J heads. There is close to 100 hrs in my head right now. By no stretch was this part of my build cheap. What is in the head labor and valvetrain I could almost buy another MKIII. These are some old pics, we just started the madness.LOL

I love your project. And think of it this way...know what 2JZ Supra is going to cost you?

 

[Joel W.]

Cool Nick, :bigthumb: I see what your saying and I understand the function and need for the water jackets of course I still think Toyota realized there was an "issue" lol with them on the 7m and they added these extra "bridges" across the water jacket on the 2jz's block..

Your right though, it is not really a flaw when things stay stock.. I agree they did not for see 30psi of boost in the design phase..

I had to find a picture of the 2JZ to make sure I was not guessing from just the gasket pic. Thanks for your input..

 

[drjonez]

I wanna know why us 7M's arent making the power the those high and mighty 2JZ people are. We have essentially the same engine as them, so whats holding us back?

The best 7M setups are pushing what...700-800 HP?

2JZ's are making twice that. Why is the 2JZ so much better at making power over the 7M, theyre both 3.0 liter, 24 Valve, I-6.

simple- $$.

MKIV owners are rich stupid snobs paying for work....MKIII owners are broke/cheap kids doing their own work.

 

[aljordan]

2JZ valves that have been cut down .5mm so they fit.

Buddy has 1.5mm o/s vavles in his mk3 head. They are stock toyota 2jz valves. Its tight. With Ross pistons, its still a non interference engine too

They may have had to cut the length of the valve down slightly. machien shop didn't elaborate, they just put them in.

Altho I can see hat you're saying about valve shrouding. The edge of that combustion chamber is pretty close to the edge of the valve. I was thinking one would need at least 3/16 of an inch to not run into a shrouding problem. I was thinking he looked at that.... I'll have to report back.

 

[IJ.]

Alan: Thanks there's another Supra Myth squashed!

I still say it's not the best of ideas due to the shrouding of the CC wall.

Another issue in doing this would be the Seat diameter, to get decent flow gains through it you have to open it up and doing so is going to make it quite thin running the risk of dropping it out of the head if it can't maintain it's press fit.

 

[aljordan]

From ferrea's website. Both are stock sizes.

7m exhaust (mm)
diameter = 27.5
stem diameter= 6
length = 98.05
tip length = 4

2jz exhuast (mm)
diameter = 29.0
stem diameter = 5.98
length = 99.01
tip length = 3.5

 

[upgradedsupra]

If you really do your research you will see that the Supras making 800+whp are actually not as common as you think - and the biggest of the big numbers are coming with the stroker motors now.

This is true about the strokers. They are geting crazier as the year's go by :biglaugh: Great to see the power output of these engines.

Can the 7MGTE handle 1000+? Sure... there are even 4-Cyl cars out there with nearly 1000whp and two fewer cyls. Is the 7MGTE going to be efficient at that level? We won't even bring in the reliability question.

Why not..Do you know for sure that the 7M can not be reliable? I have proven many times it can. I get tired of showing people and I do what I do for a reason to show people it can :biglaugh: I say this because I feel it is insinuated that they can not be reliable and if you didn't mean that well I retract my comment.

I brought my head to a machine shop recently and to get the most porting it can possibly get. I asked him what would be the difference be from a 2J and a 7M. Stock for stock it is no question the 2J is better but with my major ported head and a major 2J head, there is very lil difference. :naughty: This is what I am told.

You don't get many people doing the 7M because they think "head gasket" Truth is many 2J's do blow gaskets to. A surface is a surface and if prepped correctly it will stay together like any of them.

"as far as the post itself "why aren't we making 1500hp" MKIII guys are generally young kids that can not afford to do things like MKIV guys. Make sense?

simple- $$.

MKIV owners are rich stupid snobs paying for work....MKIII owners are broke/cheap kids doing their own work.

Agreed LOL

My .02

Duane

 

[KeithH]

Why not..Do you know for sure that the 7M can not be reliable? I have proven many times it can. I get tired of showing people and I do what I do for a reason to show people it can :biglaugh: I say this because I feel it is insinuated that they can not be reliable and if you didn't mean that well I retract my comment.

Duane - you read my comment wrong. I was basically leaving the subject of reliability out of my comments ("We won't even bring in the reliability question."). If I were going to make a dig at the 7M reliability I would first have to had put a LOT more money into fixing my own 7M that has gone nearly 200K miles on the original Turbo and original HG and hasn't even been cracked open. The 7M "CAN" be a very reliable engine.

Even the "Almighty" 2J has reliability problems when put together poorly. How many HGs has Saad blown over the years? What about those kids that are now driving 2Js and are finding the same problems that they had with the 7M?

The problem is not mechanical in these cases. It is organic - read the grey stuff between the ears of the driver.

Garbage In Garbage Out

 

[91T breezen']

1000whp...:evil2: It would be great to see someone do it! Even 900, would be crazy! But is it practical for the average Supra owner? Or even affordable? Ah....No!::nono: or, moreover, can the average driver handle much over 500whp, again I would say, no. It's very exciting to watch guys like Tony, Allan, and Duane go after these lofty numbers.:icon_bigg But even if I could afford to, I would still leave it to them. If I make 500whp someday, I'll be satisfied. It's about all my limited driving skill would ever want to tackle!:icon_razz