Which Oil
- Thread starter NA86.5
- Start date
Read this thread...all of it, especially the posts by JetJock...he knows an awful lot about engine oil.
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15453
More info:
http://63.240.161.99/motoroil/
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters.html
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15453
More info:
http://63.240.161.99/motoroil/
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters.html
Fuzz420
Are U Here 2 take My Baby
LOL......., We just went through this earlier today. STAY AWAY...., RUN AWAY from the valvoline. That is the worst oil you can put into any engine. I run penzoil 10w40. I run that because that's what the previous owner used. Castrol 10w40 Is what I would run in it if it didn't drink so much. And when I get the car plugged up so the bleeding stops. It's castrol 10w40 all the way. Can you feel me??? I knew, that you could. Seriously if I had valvoline in my ride and it was broke down and sitting. I would still change the oil. Forget about the valvoline. You smell what I'm stepp'n in? lol I am..........., my biggest fan.
allow me to enstill some fear in you for a moment...
On a typical engine, the clearance between the rod journal and the bearing is somewhere around .0015 inches. A bearing is made of soft metals such as lead. A journal ( your crankshaft) is made of a very hard metal. The only thing that keeps these metals from extreme amounts of friction is the oil that hydrodynamically wedges itself between the bearing and journal.(which in turn creates oil pressure)
Knowing this happens not only for your piston rod bearings, but also your main bearings (where your crankshaft rides inside of the block) and the same oil has to make it up top to lube your top end and cylinder walls, do you still trust just any oil? .0015 inches is pretty damn small. My vote, Synthetic. Im currently using mobil 1 15w50. Sorry just thought id rant. and oh yeah, the oil also has to withstand high temperatures of the turbo and resist cooking and ashing inside the turbo. Synthetic oils have properties that help resist cooking inside your turbo after shutdown and what not.:icon_bigg
On a typical engine, the clearance between the rod journal and the bearing is somewhere around .0015 inches. A bearing is made of soft metals such as lead. A journal ( your crankshaft) is made of a very hard metal. The only thing that keeps these metals from extreme amounts of friction is the oil that hydrodynamically wedges itself between the bearing and journal.(which in turn creates oil pressure)
Knowing this happens not only for your piston rod bearings, but also your main bearings (where your crankshaft rides inside of the block) and the same oil has to make it up top to lube your top end and cylinder walls, do you still trust just any oil? .0015 inches is pretty damn small. My vote, Synthetic. Im currently using mobil 1 15w50. Sorry just thought id rant. and oh yeah, the oil also has to withstand high temperatures of the turbo and resist cooking and ashing inside the turbo. Synthetic oils have properties that help resist cooking inside your turbo after shutdown and what not.:icon_bigg
supramacist said:
Every machine shop I have had work done at has recommended Valvoline 20/50 VR1 Racing oil. :icon_conf
Whatever floats your boat man. I have never herd anyone say anything good about valvoline exept valvoline. It's nearly Blasphemy not to be running some kind of castrol. Mobile 1......., definitley top notch oil. I used to live in Long Beach. These are mainly opinions and there is a reason they are free.
supramacist said:
No rant here, talking oil is like talking politics.:icon_bigg
I also didn't notice we were talking 7m-ge so I would probably run 10/40.
yes, its thick oil, but thats not always a bad thing. Oil tends to get hot, which makes oil thinner. 15w50 means it pours like a 15 weight (15 weight charachteristics at 0 degrees C) and protects like a 50 weight.Its called multi viscosity. Your oil is going to be hot more often than it is cold. plus since its a little thicker odds are its gonna stick a little better to help aid cold starts. nobody likes dry starts. Not to mention as your motor gets older, the oil clearances get a little bigger because of common wear. a thicker oil helps to compensate ( i have 188k on my motor)
I use only Valvoline Racing VR-1 10W60 in the 7M-GTE. most people here take Castrol 10W60 since it´s a bit cheaper than the valvoline. 10W40 would fit perfect for normal driving but since it´s possible to drive a bit faster here in germany oil temperature is more a problem. In the 7M-GE i would also run 10W40, and 15Wxx should be also ok if you live in warmer climate. 20W50 is more like a racing oil, would be to thick for the cold starts in normal driving. brand is more a personal decision.
John
Dresden, Germany
John
Dresden, Germany
No, Diff and Trans is not so big problem. Maybe i will install temp sensors this spring but that has no priority for me. had no problems with transmission temps but depending on car and size of oil cooler with oil temp on high speeds (not so much with the supra but mainly on audi 5cyl.). If you can go half an hour with > 200km/h engine oil temp is the main problem (if small or inefficient oil cooler, small oil sump with low volume etc.).
And for the oil topic: 10W60 (also 15W50/20W50) is much better than 10W40 regarding peaks in oil temp and will not break as easy under load. Could save the bearings on a hot day.
Thought about diff oil cooler some times but had not needed it for know. Would fit this if i would like to run a 24 hour endurance race
maybe in very hot climate my decision would change
And for the oil topic: 10W60 (also 15W50/20W50) is much better than 10W40 regarding peaks in oil temp and will not break as easy under load. Could save the bearings on a hot day.
Thought about diff oil cooler some times but had not needed it for know. Would fit this if i would like to run a 24 hour endurance race
maybe in very hot climate my decision would changeJohn: Very interesting!
I know some of the Euro Mk3's had them and I'm trying to pin down a Diff failure issue I have here that I suspect is from overheating!
thanks for the reply.
I know some of the Euro Mk3's had them and I'm trying to pin down a Diff failure issue I have here that I suspect is from overheating!
thanks for the reply.
Would be easy to install a temp sensor so you can watch / log diff temp on real driving.
Fitting a real cooler would be more complicated. Would need a proper pump and oil filter. I read a thread here last time regarding pumps but thats not the real problem. good filter is essential and the most difficult would be fitting the cooler in a good position under the car.
Is there any thread here regarding your diff problem ? We´ll had this topic right the last days with a friend in germany, the stock supra diff is´nt really build for >500 PS nono:
Fitting a real cooler would be more complicated. Would need a proper pump and oil filter. I read a thread here last time regarding pumps but thats not the real problem. good filter is essential and the most difficult would be fitting the cooler in a good position under the car.
Is there any thread here regarding your diff problem ? We´ll had this topic right the last days with a friend in germany, the stock supra diff is´nt really build for >500 PS nono:
Haven't really discussed it much online.
I'm building a Ford 9" diff for my car it's covered in my build thread.
I'm building a Ford 9" diff for my car it's covered in my build thread.
Ok...I see the myth of thicker oil is "better" continues. I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, but the way most of us think about motor oil is wrong...it comes from misconceptions that have been in place for a very long time.
The weight of oil you use depends on the conditions you run the car and the condition of the engine. Flow is what you want, psi is part of that, but only to a point...what you want is an oil that will give you an oil thickness (not weight) of 10 at operating temperature. For a new motor that may be a 30W oil, for an older motor that may be a 40W (personally I wouldn't go higher).
I hear a lot about "if the race cars use 50W", it must be good"...well that's no longer true either. http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/goss/2313.shtml Besides, a race engine is tore down on a very regular basis...long term wear & tear is not a concern to these guys.
There's 10 pages to the oil link I posted at the beginning of this thread...I read it several times before I got it to sink in. Changed the way I look at oil for good. Here are a few facts (quoted from Motor Oil 101):
More confusion occurs because people think in terms of the oil thinning when it gets hot. They think this thinning with heat is the problem with motor oil. It would be more correct to think that oil thickens when it cools to room temperature and this is the problem. In fact this is the problem. It is said that 90 percent of engine wear occurs at startup. If we are interested in engine longevity then we should concentrate our attention at reducing engine wear at startup.
The fact that we are dealing with a system of numbers on the can makes people think that they represent the viscosity of the oil inside the can. The problem is that the viscosity of oil varies with its temperature. A “30” weight oil has a viscosity of 3 at 302 F ( 150 C ) and thickens to 10 at 212 F ( 100 C ). It further thickens to a viscosity of 100 at 104 F ( 40 C ) and is too thick to measure at the freezing point of 32 F ( 0 C ).
30 weight oil:
Temperature ( F )....Thickness
302...........................3
212..........................10
104..........................100
32..........................250 (rough estimate)
The automotive designers usually call for their engines to run at 212 F oil and water temperature with an oil thickness of 10. This is the viscosity of the oil, not the weight as labeled on the oil can. I want to stay away from those numbers as they are confusing. We are talking about oil thickness, not oil can labeling. This will be discussed later. Forget the numbers on that oil can for now. We are only discussing the thickness of the oil that the engine requires during normal operating conditions.
If the thickness of oil was 10 when you got in your car in the morning and 10 while driving it would be perfect. You would not have to warm up your engine. You could just get in the car and step on the gas. There would be little wear and tear on you engine, almost none. Unfortunately the world is not perfect.
The night before when you drove home from work the car was up the the correct operating temperature and the oil was the correct thickness, 10. Over night the engine cooled to room temperature and the oil thickened. It is 75 F in the morning now (I do live in Florida). The oil thickness is now around 150. It is too thick to lubricate an engine designed to run with an oil having a thickness of 10.
It is time to introduce the concept of lubrication. Most believe that pressure = lubrication. This is false. Flow = lubrication. If pressure was the thing that somehow lubricated your engine then we would all be using 90 weight oil. Lubrication is used to separate moving parts, to keep them from touching. There is a one to one relationship between flow and separation. If you double the flow you will double the separation pressure in a bearing. The pressure at the bearing entrance is irrelevant.
In fact the relationship between pressure and flow is in opposition. If you change your oil to a thicker formula the pressure will go up. It goes up because the resistance to flow is greater and in fact the flow must go down in order for the pressure to go up. They are inversely related. Conversely if you choose a thinner oil then the pressure will go down. This can only occur if the flow has increased.
It seems then that we should all be using the thinnest oil money can buy. This is partly true. The gold standard is that all engines should have a pressure of 10 PSI for every 1,000 RPM of operation, not more, not less. After all, you do need some pressure to move that oil along, but only enough pressure, not more. More pressure is not better, it can only result from the impedance of oil flow. Remember that oil flow is the only thing that does the lubricating.
High flow does more than lubricate. It is one of the things used to cool the hottest parts of your engine, the pistons, valve areas and bearings. This cooling effect is as important as lubrication in your engine. If your engine is running hot use a thinner oil. The flow will increase and so will the cooling. This is even more important in the racing condition.
It is time to dispel the notion that 0W-30 oil is too thin when our manual calls for 10W-30. A 0W-30 is always the better choice, always. The 0W-30 is not thinner. It is the same thickness as the 10W-30 at operating temperatures. The difference is when you turn your engine off for the night. Both oils thicken over the evening and night. They both had a thickness, a viscosity of 10 when you got home and turned your engine off. That was the perfect thickness for engine operation.
As cooling occurs and you wake up ready to go back to work the next day the oils have gotten too thick for your engine to lubricate properly. It is 75 F outside this morning. One oil thickened to a viscosity of say 90. The other thickened to a viscosity of 40. Both are too thick in the morning at startup. But 40 is better than 90. Your engine wants the oil to have a thickness of 10 to work properly. You are better off starting with the viscosity of 40 than the honey - like oil with a viscosity of 90.
I repeat: More confusion occurs because people think in terms of the oil thinning when it gets hot. They think this thinning with heat is the problem with motor oil. It would be more correct to think that oil thickens when it cools to room temperature and THIS is the problem.
The weight of oil you use depends on the conditions you run the car and the condition of the engine. Flow is what you want, psi is part of that, but only to a point...what you want is an oil that will give you an oil thickness (not weight) of 10 at operating temperature. For a new motor that may be a 30W oil, for an older motor that may be a 40W (personally I wouldn't go higher).
I hear a lot about "if the race cars use 50W", it must be good"...well that's no longer true either. http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/goss/2313.shtml Besides, a race engine is tore down on a very regular basis...long term wear & tear is not a concern to these guys.
There's 10 pages to the oil link I posted at the beginning of this thread...I read it several times before I got it to sink in. Changed the way I look at oil for good. Here are a few facts (quoted from Motor Oil 101):
More confusion occurs because people think in terms of the oil thinning when it gets hot. They think this thinning with heat is the problem with motor oil. It would be more correct to think that oil thickens when it cools to room temperature and this is the problem. In fact this is the problem. It is said that 90 percent of engine wear occurs at startup. If we are interested in engine longevity then we should concentrate our attention at reducing engine wear at startup.
The fact that we are dealing with a system of numbers on the can makes people think that they represent the viscosity of the oil inside the can. The problem is that the viscosity of oil varies with its temperature. A “30” weight oil has a viscosity of 3 at 302 F ( 150 C ) and thickens to 10 at 212 F ( 100 C ). It further thickens to a viscosity of 100 at 104 F ( 40 C ) and is too thick to measure at the freezing point of 32 F ( 0 C ).
30 weight oil:
Temperature ( F )....Thickness
302...........................3
212..........................10
104..........................100
32..........................250 (rough estimate)
The automotive designers usually call for their engines to run at 212 F oil and water temperature with an oil thickness of 10. This is the viscosity of the oil, not the weight as labeled on the oil can. I want to stay away from those numbers as they are confusing. We are talking about oil thickness, not oil can labeling. This will be discussed later. Forget the numbers on that oil can for now. We are only discussing the thickness of the oil that the engine requires during normal operating conditions.
If the thickness of oil was 10 when you got in your car in the morning and 10 while driving it would be perfect. You would not have to warm up your engine. You could just get in the car and step on the gas. There would be little wear and tear on you engine, almost none. Unfortunately the world is not perfect.
The night before when you drove home from work the car was up the the correct operating temperature and the oil was the correct thickness, 10. Over night the engine cooled to room temperature and the oil thickened. It is 75 F in the morning now (I do live in Florida). The oil thickness is now around 150. It is too thick to lubricate an engine designed to run with an oil having a thickness of 10.
It is time to introduce the concept of lubrication. Most believe that pressure = lubrication. This is false. Flow = lubrication. If pressure was the thing that somehow lubricated your engine then we would all be using 90 weight oil. Lubrication is used to separate moving parts, to keep them from touching. There is a one to one relationship between flow and separation. If you double the flow you will double the separation pressure in a bearing. The pressure at the bearing entrance is irrelevant.
In fact the relationship between pressure and flow is in opposition. If you change your oil to a thicker formula the pressure will go up. It goes up because the resistance to flow is greater and in fact the flow must go down in order for the pressure to go up. They are inversely related. Conversely if you choose a thinner oil then the pressure will go down. This can only occur if the flow has increased.
It seems then that we should all be using the thinnest oil money can buy. This is partly true. The gold standard is that all engines should have a pressure of 10 PSI for every 1,000 RPM of operation, not more, not less. After all, you do need some pressure to move that oil along, but only enough pressure, not more. More pressure is not better, it can only result from the impedance of oil flow. Remember that oil flow is the only thing that does the lubricating.
High flow does more than lubricate. It is one of the things used to cool the hottest parts of your engine, the pistons, valve areas and bearings. This cooling effect is as important as lubrication in your engine. If your engine is running hot use a thinner oil. The flow will increase and so will the cooling. This is even more important in the racing condition.
It is time to dispel the notion that 0W-30 oil is too thin when our manual calls for 10W-30. A 0W-30 is always the better choice, always. The 0W-30 is not thinner. It is the same thickness as the 10W-30 at operating temperatures. The difference is when you turn your engine off for the night. Both oils thicken over the evening and night. They both had a thickness, a viscosity of 10 when you got home and turned your engine off. That was the perfect thickness for engine operation.
As cooling occurs and you wake up ready to go back to work the next day the oils have gotten too thick for your engine to lubricate properly. It is 75 F outside this morning. One oil thickened to a viscosity of say 90. The other thickened to a viscosity of 40. Both are too thick in the morning at startup. But 40 is better than 90. Your engine wants the oil to have a thickness of 10 to work properly. You are better off starting with the viscosity of 40 than the honey - like oil with a viscosity of 90.
I repeat: More confusion occurs because people think in terms of the oil thinning when it gets hot. They think this thinning with heat is the problem with motor oil. It would be more correct to think that oil thickens when it cools to room temperature and THIS is the problem.
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@jdub: i won´t start a new oil war as a newbie on supramania (we have this also in every german car forum half a year) but just one said:
you´re totally right from the point of view regarding engine wear and cold starts. But that´s not all thats important for a high-horsepower car like the supra.
that´s the point. Normal operating conditions vary, is just a thing of personal definition. could be cruising at 65 mph and some run´s on a drag strip occasionally. Or could be a 1 hour trip with 200-250 km/h on a sunday morning´s free motorway in europe from hamburg to berlin.
And you should notice one thing in your linked interview "Yeah, a lot of people think that the more rpms you go, the hotter everything is, you've got to have this real thick oil, and that's not necessarily the case. In a lot of cases nowadays, we're qualifying in racing 0-weight oil."
That doesn´t mean: it´s totally true for every engine ever build. Sure it´s true for modern engines/cars and partially for a fresh rebuild. But i wouldn´t run a 0W30 in a 15yr. old supra. Maybe 5W40 in a fresh rebuild with tight clearances for daily driving. And also from your point of view: sure i also won´t run any 15W40, not in germany where it´s a lot colder than in arizona. There are some 5W50 oil´s available here, that would be my first choice if the supra would run in cold winter.
John
you´re totally right from the point of view regarding engine wear and cold starts. But that´s not all thats important for a high-horsepower car like the supra.
jdub said:
that´s the point. Normal operating conditions vary, is just a thing of personal definition. could be cruising at 65 mph and some run´s on a drag strip occasionally. Or could be a 1 hour trip with 200-250 km/h on a sunday morning´s free motorway in europe from hamburg to berlin.
And you should notice one thing in your linked interview "Yeah, a lot of people think that the more rpms you go, the hotter everything is, you've got to have this real thick oil, and that's not necessarily the case. In a lot of cases nowadays, we're qualifying in racing 0-weight oil."
That doesn´t mean: it´s totally true for every engine ever build. Sure it´s true for modern engines/cars and partially for a fresh rebuild. But i wouldn´t run a 0W30 in a 15yr. old supra. Maybe 5W40 in a fresh rebuild with tight clearances for daily driving. And also from your point of view: sure i also won´t run any 15W40, not in germany where it´s a lot colder than in arizona. There are some 5W50 oil´s available here, that would be my first choice if the supra would run in cold winter.
John
bitsnake said:
Conditions do affect the oil you use...one thing you want to look at is viscosity at start and operating temperature. The colder outside it is, the larger the difference in temperature to get the oil warmed up the "10" thickness that automotive engine designers shoot for. The thicker the oil, the longer it takes to get it to flow. Conversely, a high milage motor has looser tolerances from wear...a thicker oil may be appropriate to fill the "gaps" on bearing surfaces.
At operating temperature (approx 100 deg C) what your shooting for is 10 psi per 1000 rpm. This doesn't hold complerely true on a Supra since it's a high volume/low pressure system and the relief valve pretty much limits psi to approx 40-50. A thicker oil will give you more psi...my thoughts are to match the viscosity as close as possible to the driving conditions I do the most. That works out to be 30-40 psi running the car here in Phoenix...as you pointed out, that might not be true for other parts of the world
The supra uses oil to cool the motor as well...good flow enhances this.
Another thing that will affect psi is the filter...the supra oil pump sends the oil to the filter first, then to the various parts of the motor. You want the lowest pressure drop for the best filtration in this case. The quality of the bypass filter is also important to protect your expensive motor too.
I'm not trying to start another oil war either...in fact, we are agreeing on a lot of the same thing. Oil is an individual choice...some are better for one application/conditions and some are better for others. I'm just trying to point out that one should read up on this subject and make their choice based on what's best for their car vs. just going with what Joe Bob mechanic says.
BTW...your English is very good...and my wife is German :icon_bigg