wheel well rot

[taka21]

hey everyone
im attempting to tackle the rear fenderwell rot issue
the plan is to cut till i get to good metal then pop rivet new metal in place with a layer of sealant between them.
other than welding, anyone have any suggestions?
thanks

 

[GrimJack]

This is wrong in so many ways...

Ever seen a car assembled with pop rivets? Ever wonder why?

 

[SupaMan]

This is wrong in so many ways...

Ever seen a car assembled with pop rivets? Ever wonder why?

+1

Two words: Spot welds.

 

[BlackDevilSupra]

Basically two chassis off restoration that epitomizes the "correct" process in performing rust removal and and repair on the A70 chassis:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30512
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84577

Any less meticulous attention to some degree is an indication of planned short live ownership of the vehicle.
The rear wheel fender well rust is a scourge to the MkIII chassis, and one that is more pervasive, but not really realized by most.
Why does rust seem to occur in this location?? Even my '87T with 80k miles and hardly driven, demonstrated the beginning of this issue. I already addressed and remedied the problem with some products from Eastwood Co.

 

[taka21]

Basically two chassis off restoration that epitomizes the "correct" process in performing rust removal and and repair on the A70 chassis:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30512
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84577

Any less meticulous attention to some degree is an indication of planned short live ownership of the vehicle.
The rear wheel fender well rust is a scourge to the MkIII chassis, and one that is more pervasive, but not really realized by most.
Why does rust seem to occur in this location?? Even my '87T with 80k miles and hardly driven, demonstrated the beginning of this issue. I already addressed and remedied the problem with some products from Eastwood Co.

i dont understand how my original method is any less meticulous, if anything its just as if not moreso,
please correct me if im wrong, but i still have to cut away the rusted metal, i still have to seal it with por 15 or some other rust proofing paint, i still have to fit new metal in its place and rust proof it as well, but instead of welding im using some rtv between the new metal and the old, then drilling my holes for the rivets and riviting the layers together then rust proofing the whole job.
you are telling me this is a bad idea but you are not telling me why

also if i do it right i can go back and weld it when its warmer right?

 

[adampecush]

You won't be able to weld through RTV. Look into metal bonding agents, typically used by body shops. (might be a good idea to go down and talk to some autobody guys...i believe the OEMs use bonding agent for quite a few things) They form a surprisingly strong bond between panels. If you want to avoid welding, this would be the ONLY way to go. With pop rivets, you are introducing many new points of potential corrosion (drilled holes) and failure (pop rivets themselves).

 

[Poodles]

Do you see pop rivets holding your rear quarter panels on?

 

[taka21]

Do you see pop rivets holding your rear quarter panels on?

no but the fronts bolt on lol

 

[taka21]

You won't be able to weld through RTV. Look into metal bonding agents, typically used by body shops. (might be a good idea to go down and talk to some autobody guys...i believe the OEMs use bonding agent for quite a few things) They form a surprisingly strong bond between panels. If you want to avoid welding, this would be the ONLY way to go. With pop rivets, you are introducing many new points of potential corrosion (drilled holes) and failure (pop rivets themselves).

ok cool
im really looking for a way that i wont have to weld for right now and it will still close up these holes till its warmer
i wont have access to a welder or even a decent shop till like may sometime
so a non welding option would be great

ok thats a good reason not to, how often do rivets fail?(generally speaking)

 

[I8AV8]

This is wrong in so many ways...

Ever seen a car assembled with pop rivets? Ever wonder why?

I'm betting cost. Semi trailers, busses and even airplanes of all sizes are held together wth rivets! and yes, I've seen them used in cars too, expensive ones. :biglaugh:

 

[Poodles]

My point is, they would be visible and look ghetto as hell, and a future failure point.

 

[taka21]

My point is, they would be visible and look ghetto as hell, and a future failure point.

oh im sorry i dont think i was posting clearly, all the rust is right in the middle of the rear fender wells none of the metal im replacing shows on the outside at all

sorry for being unclear

 

[GrimJack]

I'm betting cost. Semi trailers, busses and even airplanes of all sizes are held together wth rivets! and yes, I've seen them used in cars too, expensive ones. :biglaugh:

There is a rather large difference in strength between rivets ... and pop rivets.

 

[taka21]

There is a rather large difference in strength between rivets ... and pop rivets.

im not trying to be ignorant but what are those differences?

 

[Poodles]

In that case it's somewhat part of the unibody structure.

 

[IJ.]

im not trying to be ignorant but what are those differences?

Pop rivets are hollow and usually aluminium with a steel pin, in steel panels they will corrode and in time loosen, "rivets" can be steel are solid and are hammered/peened into place totally filling the hole.

 

[hurricanehyshka]

rivets or solid rivets is what is used primarily to hold aircraft together. Usually made of 2024 aluminum and is "BUCKED" and is a permanent fastener once in place.

pop rivets are usually made from straight aluminum (tin foil) and are non structural cause, once popped they have a hollow design, very easy to shear off.

although not everyone is set up to buck solid rivets, you can get "cherry max" rivets which are like a pop rivet but are structural and you can get them in a counter sunk head design which would allow a flush design, but cherry max rivets are pricey one to two bucks a pop.

 

[taka21]

ok now i understand what you mean
so basically because the pop rivets are made of aluminum and they are hollow they become a weak point, (would they be as weak if they were steel?)
so doing it this way isn't gonna buy me much time and could possibly make my life more miserable when i want to properly weld the panels in

ok the goal is to keep water out and heat in for a few months and stop the spread of the rust
any options?

 

[I8AV8]

There is a rather large difference in strength between rivets ... and pop rivets.

Agreed, I guess my point was if it was cost effective, you could rivet a car together and yeild at least equal strength. There's also a differece between patching a hole and recreating structure.

Just for the record, Budget allowing, I'd wait and weld it if that's your ultimate plan. No sense in waisting the time, effort an money to do it again in a couple of months. Put a cover on it and wait.

 

[adampecush]

ok now i understand what you mean
so basically because the pop rivets are made of aluminum and they are hollow they become a weak point, (would they be as weak if they were steel?)
so doing it this way isn't gonna buy me much time and could possibly make my life more miserable when i want to properly weld the panels in

ok the goal is to keep water out and heat in for a few months and stop the spread of the rust
any options?

the rust shouldn't advance too much in a couple of months. A temporary solution would be to use some sort of adhesive mat and stick it into the fender well as well as inside the car to cover up the holes (after cleaning of course). This will give you a cheap, temporary fix until you can do it properly.