What does it take to go E85? Advantages/Disadvantages?

[Turbo Habanero]

So i was wondering what it takes to get are car to run e85?

I here it makes more power so i just wanted to open a disscussion to learn about it hopefully some others can get some use as well

 

[Nick M]

The advantage is the taxpayers are paying for part of your bill of a fuel that can be tuned agressive. Nothing more. It is bad for our economy and food prices, and on top of that, has lower BTU content than gasoline.

 

[Dingoboy]

The way I understand it is that you'd have to replace most of the plastic & rubber parts in the fuel system, from injectors to lines, o-rings in the fuel pump, etc., because ethanol is far more corrosive to plastic & rubber than gasoline. E85 cars use plastics & rubber parts designed to withstand its corrosive properties. And then, of course, you'd need to adjust the tune to compensate for the ethanol.

Oh, and be ready for the lower mileage that comes with ethanol. It delivers a bit more power, but the trade-off is lower mileage. Not a concern for all, but worth noting.

Long term, you could probably spend a lot less for other, more time-tested upgrades, and stick with standard gasoline. Or, the government could regulate gasoline out of existence, and we'd all be forced to convert our cars to ethanol or park them for good. Or, the government could end the misguided ethanol subsidies, and no gas station in its right mind would sell it any more (unless oil rises to $800 a barrel, thus rendering ethanol economically sustainable on its own).

 

[Van]

To me this article in Hot Rod Mag , says it all... I'm seriously looking into this fuel. Van

 

[Van]

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no...

12.1 is still plenty safe, could pull it to 12.5 but im on a felpro HG so we left it a tad rich.

I was surprised by Devin's statement that his 12.1 AF was still safe. I found articles online and did my homework... I see that I need to scale the difference between petrol and e85; Stoich for petrol is 14.7 = 9.7 Stoich for e85. That equates to 34%, so pluggin in your AF petrol 12.1 = 7.9 for e85.
Below is a quick scale for comparison purposes:

"Fuel ........................ AFRst ........ FARst ....... Equivalence Ratio ... Lambda
Gas stoich ................ 14.7 .......... 0.068 ................ 1 ................... 1
Gas max power rich .... 12.5 .......... 0.08 ................. 1.176 .............. 0.8503
Gas max power lean .... 13.23 ........ 0.0755 .............. 1.111 ............. 0.900
E85 stoich .................. 9.765 ....... 0.10235 ............ 1 ................... 1
E85 max power rich ...... 6.975 ....... 0.1434 .............. 1.40 ............... 0.7143
E85 max power lean ..... 8.4687 ...... 0.118 ............... 1.153 .............. 0.8673
The term AFRst refers to the Air Fuel Ratio under stoichiometric, or ideal air fuel ratio mixture conditions. FARst refers to the Fuel Air Ratio under stoichiometric conditions, and is simply the reciprocal of AFRst. Equivalence Ratio is the ratio of actual Fuel Air Ratio to Stoichiometric Fuel Air Ratio; it provides an intuitive way to express richer mixtures. Lambda is the ratio of actual Air Fuel Ratio to Stoichiometric Air Fuel Ratio; it provides an intuitive way to express leanness conditions (i.e., less fuel, less rich) mixtures of fuel and air." (From TurboBricks.com)
This is getting interesting. Van

 

[Nick M]

It delivers a bit more power, but the trade-off is lower mileage.

Actually, it delivers less power. You have to retune aggressively to reap the benifits of the alcohol. This is why milage drops. Less energy in the fuel.

And 14.7:1 is not any sort of optimal tune for the car. It is the tune that keeps our older 3 way cat in its maximum operating range.

 

[eraezer]

E85 is aggressive against a lot of materials. Rubber hoses, plastic lines or copper lines won't do. Even aluminum is sensitive to ethanol.
What you want is stainless steel lines and teflon hoses.

E85 contains about 30% less energy than regular gasoline, but it has a higher octane rating.
The higher octane means that you can run a more aggressive tune.
Knock is also a bit different, harder to hear in some machines.
You will get alcohol in the crankcase so change oil more often.

Nick M: you are correct. The AFR for the most performance is 13.8:1.

 

[mecevans]

is the gain from ethanol from the cooling effect of extra fuel?

 

[Typhoon]

Please, if you don't know about ethanol fuels, refrain from spreading the usual anti ethanol myths.
It's an excellent fuel. ALL fuels are subsidised or cost money to transport and refine, if you look past the uninformed BS, it's a very cost effective fuel, if it's allowed to compete on a level playing field.
As for being corrosive and eating components, no it doesn't. I've been running my 21 year old 2.3 turbo Volvo on E85 for 8 months now and the only mods I've done are larger injectors and winding the boost up a LOT to take advantage of this excellent fuel's combustion chamber cooling abilities and high octane. There are additives in regular gasoline that are far, far more corrosive and damaging than what you'll find in E85. As for handling issues and water contamination, I just drive the car and fill it like any other fuel. The car also sits for a week or more at a time in between uses, so it doesn't suck entire thunderstorms out of the air and turn the fuel into water either.
I don't know how the Toyota EFI would adapt, most ECU's just try to maintain stoich when in cruise etc so they don't care, as long as they have enough extra injector to get there and not go outside pulsewidth parameters. You just size injectors to suit WOT and the ECU will take care of everything else 99% of the time.
You will get some ethanol in the crankcase, just as you will with gasoline. Normal oil changes and regular longer trips will eliminate this, just like existing fuels. Short trips means shorter change intervals. Not really relevant.
My fuel economy is about 10% worse than when optimised for the premium unleaded it required before and E85 is approximately 30% cheaper here than the premium fuels, so I win.
E85 is a very hard fuel to get to knock. You can happily keep winding in boost and ignition advance till you melt stuff. It is also very forgiving of running rich, so you can use a lot of excess fuel to keep combustion temps down and still make mondo power. It is a very, very forgiving fuel to tune with.
When you in the US start seeing E85 producers go over to other feedstocks like sugar cane, THEN you will see how affordable and cheap this fuel is to make and how it can compete without any subsidies. Cane derived E85 is an excellent fuel, the cane produces a primary product (sugar) and the E85 is manufactured from the green waste. A huge win /win.
E85 is only in it's first stages of development, there are plenty of exciting new processes coming online now to produce ethanol, including from green waste. It is a fuel of the future and it is here now, so use it, it's only going to become easier to find.
Remember, your corn producers have been receiving subsidies for well over 30 years, so subsidising E85 is just another form of that in your country. Don't blame the fuel as such, blame your government for stifling growth into other crops they could be growing. E85 is a pleasant side benefit of this protectionism. You are paying for it anyway, so why not use it?
Petroleum fuels are expensive, filthy and coming to the end of their economic lives, make the switch and enjoy!

 

[Nick M]

Please, if you don't know about ethanol fuels, refrain from spreading the usual anti ethanol myths.

The only myths are spread by people who are getting paid the subsidy.

It's an excellent fuel.

That is an opinion. I find it worthless to have the powerloss unless you go really agressive on the tune.

ALL fuels are subsidised or cost money to transport and refine,

Not nearly as much as E85.

if you look past the uninformed BS,

My recomendation is you don't post anymore about E85.

it's a very cost effective fuel, if it's allowed to compete on a level playing field.

It is pitiful on a level playing field.

Petroleum fuels are expensive, filthy and coming to the end of their economic lives, make the switch and enjoy!

Instead of the liberal propoganda you are regurgitating, I suggest the members educate themselves about it. There are many good sources. Petroleum is used to make E85. I bet you didn't even know....And it has lower BTU content. Not to mention it is FOOD!

Promise: Ethanol will reduce our dependence on fossil fuel

Not in our lifetimes. In 2004, the U.S. consumed 100 "quads" (quadrillion BTUs) of energy. Of that, 86 quads were from fossil fuels. And of that, 40 quads were petroleum. About 18 of those petroleum quads were refined into gasoline. If we continue to use gasoline at no more than the 2004 rate — a fair assumption if prices stay high — the ethanol mandate by 2012 will stretch those 18 quads of gasoline with five percent by volume of ethanol, or 0.6 quad, give or take due to rounding. Remembering that we use 86 quads of fossil fuels, ethanol would displace a mere 0.7 percent of that.

Actually, the picture is not this bright, because fossil fuels are used in the production of ethanol. In fact, some studies have concluded that making ethanol from agricultural crops requires more energy than is contained in the finished product. There is no academic agreement on this point, and small differences in assumptions can profoundly alter the conclusions. For example, will the corn yield be 125 bushels per acre, or 127, or 140? Will you get 2.5 gallons of ethanol per bushel, or 2.68, or 2.80?

A recent study published by the University of California Berkeley looks at six different ethanol studies, brings the assumptions up to date, and makes other adjustments the authors think are appropriate. It concludes that only 5 to 26 percent of the energy in today's corn-based ethanol is "new." The other 74-to-95 percent represents the recycling of fossil-fuel energy to produce ethanol. Compared with historical assessments, this study represents a relatively optimistic outlook for ethanol.

Even if we accept the most favorable assumption, that 26 percent of its energy is new, that represents only about 0.16 quad. Of the 18 original petroleum quads that went into gasoline, that means ethanol would comprise less than one percent. And compared with the total of 86 quads of fossil-fuel energy used in America, ethanol would replace less than two-tenths of one percent.

On the other hand, if the true energy gain of ethanol is at the low side of the confidence limits — only five percent — all those results are divided by five and ethanol looks like a make-work program that only a politician could love.Continued...

Here is a link to one of the better (correct) articles on the subject. It was written by Patrick Beddard, of the formerly right wing car periodical Car and Driver. The people that invented the Cannonball Run. (Brock Yates)

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/06q3/ethanol_promises-tech_stuff

 

[Van]

Now, for me, I went on-line to get educated about this fuel to make a choice based on the evidence, local availability and my personal preference. Next step is to perform a test, whereby I log my Supra's performance and MPG and see for myself. Van

 

[MK3.0dudeman]

Question

I bought a 1J that was running on E85 for awhile and I just want to know do you guys think that the motor, injectors, fuel rail, ect will be okay? I will be removing the head and checking everything out.

 

[Nick M]

E85 can be great. Just look at what some people are doing with it.

 

[Zach]

That is an opinion. I find it worthless to have the powerloss unless you go really agressive on the tune.



Not nearly as much as E85.



My recomendation is you don't post anymore about E85.



It is pitiful on a level playing field.



Instead of the liberal propoganda you are regurgitating, I suggest the members educate themselves about it. There are many good sources. Petroleum is used to make E85. I bet you didn't even know....And it has lower BTU content. Not to mention it is FOOD!




Here is a link to one of the better (correct) articles on the subject. It was written by Patrick Beddard, of the formerly right wing car periodical Car and Driver. The people that invented the Cannonball Run. (Brock Yates)

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/06q3/ethanol_promises-tech_stuff

Keep political B.S. out of this thread and in off topic where it belongs. We're talking about fuels for sports cars.

There IS NO POWER LOSS with E85. Obviously you have to correct for the difference in energy density, but that's done more with injector sizing than anything. Once you retune it to correct for proper AFR's on the new fuel you'll actually see a gain in power. We've seen anywhere from 15-30hp gains when retuning from 93 octane at the same boost level. (We've done probably half a dozen E85 tunes in the past few months and the results have been consistent).

I've got a top feed rail, 880 injectors, single bosch 044 and a single -6 teflon braided feed line on my 1jz. Running a precision 6265. Went from being limited to around 420rwhp on pump gas and 18psi to making 530 at 26-27psi, just started running out of fuel at that point.

The moral of this story is that if E85 is available in your area, would you like an extra hundred horsepower or not?

 

[Crypton2006]

E85 is a amazing fuel for tuning, Tony at ums is making 630whp on e85 at 36psi on his evo. At the local nasa events its almost all you see. It is bringing big horsepower builds to average people that cannot spend 15 bucks a gallon on c14. The only disadvantages is the HUGE amount of fuel you have to use to make big numbers. Tony is running ID2200cc injectors at 90% duty cycle (although that is a 4 cyl)


Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk

 

[Turbo Habanero]

Can anyone point me to a list of things to buy and replace to convert my system? I have a friend that has been running e85 on is 91 mr2 for two years and all he did was replace the injectors and put in a walbro.

 

[IBoughtASupra]

You will have to make sure your fuel lines are compatible with E85. I run Teflon lines for every braided line I make.

The injectors will need to be changed as you are using more fuel but I hear and I am not sure, but people say that fuel economy is sacrificed.

Why is it hard to start in the cold? I believe SP in Chicago has a video of it starting in below freezing temperatures, but that is on a Pro-EFI.

It shouldn't be any different for any other standalone though as they all should have a cold start map and could be tuned, right?

I could be wrong, I am not too E-85 savvy.

 

[Crypton2006]

Ethanol has been added to gasoline for quite some time now most manufactures have taken that into account, so most cars it wont do any damage because it is already compatible. That being said i do not know if they where adding ethanol to gas in 87.

 

[toyotanos]

The hard starting in the cold has to do with the low volatility of the Ethanol content. Up here in MN we switch to E-70 during the winter to ensure ease of starting, and OEM's have to install alcohol concentration monitoring equipment to deal with the fluxuations.

That said, I love my E-85 and all it has done for my car. I have a lot of opinions about it, but none of them belong in this thread. I'm also not doing everything 100% by the book, but I am monitoring all the parts of the system that have the capability to fail due to the fuel choice.

Facts about my setup:
Dual Aeromotive 340 pumps
8awg, voltage feed line running through a single 40amp fuse, then (2) 30amp relays both triggered by the factory wiring.
-6AN feed lines going to (2) factory fuel filters, dual stock feed lines, dual -6AN feeds to the rail, single aeromotive -6 regulator, vent line and stock return line as return lines.
1350 injectors

 

[hvyman]

Keep political B.S. out of this thread and in off topic where it belongs. We're talking about fuels for sports cars.

There IS NO POWER LOSS with E85. Obviously you have to correct for the difference in energy density, but that's done more with injector sizing than anything. Once you retune it to correct for proper AFR's on the new fuel you'll actually see a gain in power. We've seen anywhere from 15-30hp gains when retuning from 93 octane at the same boost level. (We've done probably half a dozen E85 tunes in the past few months and the results have been consistent).

I've got a top feed rail, 880 injectors, single bosch 044 and a single -6 teflon braided feed line on my 1jz. Running a precision 6265. Went from being limited to around 420rwhp on pump gas and 18psi to making 530 at 26-27psi, just started running out of fuel at that point.

The moral of this story is that if E85 is available in your area, would you like an extra hundred horsepower or not?

You sure the 8-9psi difference didnt have anything to do with that gain? What would have been better is if you got runs at the same boost level and the only difference is the gas.