Welcom to the industry, Tesla Motors

Stanzaspeed

2.5 Twin Turbo R
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Mar 30, 2005
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only thing i can see being impractical with electric cars is how do you get a full charge on the batteries in a short period of time. kinda like filling up at a backwater gas station on a long road trip.

i still dont see electric cars becoming practical for wide spread use for a very long time. Its strange but even though i know it dosnt pollute it just dosnt seem appealing to own some battery opperated hippy car.

it would in most ways totally destroy the ability of a person to modify theur vehicle. this may apeal to some but not to me, thats for sure. :icon_conf
 

ChadMKIII

Yup, Thats The G/F
Jul 14, 2006
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Have you seen their Roadster they demo'd recently? It's looking pretty slick.
I'm still not a fan of all electrics, mostly cuz they don't have the infrastructure yet, but it will be interesting to see how everything progresses.

Of course, electric really isn't doing much good environmentally since it just means we'll be burning more coal, but as the nuclear plants become more prevalent and coal is phased out some, it could really help some.
 

bonus12

Backroads Driver
Jul 15, 2006
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Of course, electric really isn't doing much good environmentally since it just means we'll be burning more coal, but as the nuclear plants become more prevalent and coal is phased out some, it could really help some.

FROM THE WEBSITE:
(For a more detailed version of this argument, please see the white paper written by Martin and Marc.)

A common rebuttal to electric vehicles as a solution to carbon emissions is that they simply transfer the CO2 emissions to the power plant. The obvious counter is that one can develop grid electric power from a variety of means, many of which, like hydro, wind, geothermal, nuclear, solar, etc. involve no CO2 emissions. However, let’s assume for the moment that the electricity is generated from a hydrocarbon source like natural gas, the most popular fuel for new US power plants in recent years.

The H-System Combined Cycle Generator from General Electric is 60% efficient in turning natural gas into electricity. “Combined Cycle” is where the natural gas is burned to generate electricity and then the waste heat is used to create steam that powers a second generator. Natural gas recovery is 97.5% efficient, processing is also 97.5% efficient and then transmission efficiency over the electric grid is 92% on average. This gives us a well-to-electric-outlet efficiency of 97.5% x 97.5% x 60% x 92% = 52.5%.

Despite a body shape, tires and gearing aimed at high performance rather than peak efficiency, the Tesla Roadster requires 0.4 MJ per kilometer or, stated another way, will travel 2.53 km per mega-joule of electricity. The full cycle charge and discharge efficiency of the Tesla Roadster is 86%, which means that for every 100 MJ of electricity used to charge the battery, about 86 MJ reaches the motor.

Bringing the math together, we get the final figure of merit of 2.53 km/MJ x 86% x 52.5% = 1.14 km/MJ. Let’s compare that to the Prius and a few other options normally considered energy efficient.

The fully considered well-to-wheel efficiency of a gasoline powered car is equal to the energy content of gasoline (34.3 MJ/liter) minus the refinement & transportation losses (18.3%), multiplied by the miles per gallon or km per liter. The Prius at an EPA rated 55 mpg therefore has an energy efficiency of 0.56 km/MJ. This is actually an excellent number compared with a “normal” car like the Toyota Camry at 0.28 km/MJ.

Note the term hybrid as applied to cars currently on the road is a misnomer. They are really just gasoline powered cars with a little battery assistance and, unless you are one of the handful who have an aftermarket hack, the little battery has to be charged from the gasoline engine. Therefore, they can be considered simply as slightly more efficient gasoline powered cars. If the EPA certified mileage is 55 mpg, then it is indistinguishable from a non-hybrid that achieves 55 mpg. As a friend of mine says, a world 100% full of Prius drivers is still 100% addicted to oil.

The CO2 content of any given source fuel is well understood. Natural gas is 14.4 grams of carbon per mega-joule and oil is 19.9 grams of carbon per mega-joule. Applying those carbon content levels to the vehicle efficiencies, including as a reference the Honda combusted natural gas and Honda fuel cell natural gas vehicles, the hands down winner is pure electric:
Car Energy Source CO2 Content Efficiency CO2 Emissions
Honda CNG Natural Gas 14.4 g/MJ 0.32 km/MJ 45.0 g/km
Honda FCX Nat Gas-Fuel Cell 14.4 g/MJ 0.35 km/MJ 41.1 g/km
Toyota Prius Oil 19.9 g/MJ 0.56 km/MJ 35.8 g/km
Tesla Roadster Nat Gas-Electric 14.4 g/MJ 1.14 km/MJ 12.6 g/km

The Tesla Roadster still wins by a hefty margin if you assume the average CO2 per joule of US power production. The higher CO2 content of coal compared to natural gas is offset by the negligible CO2 content of hydro, nuclear, geothermal, wind, solar, etc. The exact power production mixture varies from one part of the country to another and is changing over time, so natural gas is used here as a fixed yardstick.
 

Stanzaspeed

2.5 Twin Turbo R
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Mar 30, 2005
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you wish you had a gas powered car and a jerry can :rofl:

in the end it would just take too long to charge the batteries to make a battery powered toy car like that to go any extended distances unless the batteries lasted as long as you could drive in a day.

its just not practical enough with modern technology in my opinion.
 

bonus12

Backroads Driver
Jul 15, 2006
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stanzaspeed said:
you wish you had a gas powered car and a jerry can :rofl:

in the end it would just take too long to charge the batteries to make a battery powered toy car like that to go any extended distances unless the batteries lasted as long as you could drive in a day.

its just not practical enough with modern technology in my opinion.

the tesla roadster goes 250 on a charge, thats a lot. the car is like a ferarri; would you drive a ferrari on your road trip?

in 2008, a sedan is coming out. since sedans are less powerful and use less gas than sports cars, the sedan might go as much as 500 miles! thats more than a full tank of gas by far... the roadter charges in 3.5 hours (overnight is ideal).
 

Stanzaspeed

2.5 Twin Turbo R
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i would never own a ferrari, but by comparison i do take my impractical "performance cars" on road trips. My TT-R has no cruise, bad gas mileage, non reclining drivers bucket and not a whole lot of other amenities to keep me comfy. I just finished two road trips each of ~8 hours driving. best trips i have ever taken. by far. :)

3.5 hour charge is a little long for a person to wait if they are on a trip. i agree with you that not every one would take these cars on a cross country trip. but if they ever expect a battery powered vehicle to do it they either need batteries that will last a very long time or a quicker chargeing system. maby even a battery exchange program at "gas stations" :dunno:
 

bonus12

Backroads Driver
Jul 15, 2006
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stanzaspeed said:
3.5 hour charge is a little long for a person to wait if they are on a trip. i agree with you that not every one would take these cars on a cross country trip. but if they ever expect a battery powered vehicle to do it they either need batteries that will last a very long time or a quicker chargeing system. maby even a battery exchange program at "gas stations" :dunno:

sure, 3.5 hours is a long time, but that technolgy WILL imrove once there is a strong demand. Also, what other option is there when gas eventually is not practical?

hydrogen is so lame, its unbelievable it is even being considered. hydrogen would need a whole new infrastructure. how can you transport it in large quantities without losing money?

i can't wait until the "whitestar" comes out in '08. its gonna be exciting. Tesla is awesome and will be better than toyota, honda, chevy, GM, etc...
 

Stanzaspeed

2.5 Twin Turbo R
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Mar 30, 2005
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id assume that it would as technology imporoves. and i can admit conventional gasoline powered vehicles will probably one day be obsolete. for now thanks in part to the development of oilsands deposits near me there will be for a long time a fair supply of crude oil. there are still other deposits being discovered and developed aswell. its not the best for the environment. hell i have seen what the oilsands can do to nature first hand.

one thing i could see in the future is tesla being bought out by a major auto manufacturer if they do manage to gain some measure of success.

in the end i think its safe to say it will be at least 20 years before we start to see electric and alternatively powered vehicles start to take on a more predominant role in the auto market.

bio diesel is one alternative fuel i find facinating.
 

bonus12

Backroads Driver
Jul 15, 2006
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biodiesel is ok. when and if there is a legit demand for it, it will be just as expensive as gas is now. and it is no better for the environment.

one year ago, i predicted 10 years for the electric car business to have huge influence.
 

Aaron J Williams

Make It So!!!
Jul 23, 2006
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Luck, Wisconsin
stanzaspeed said:
bio diesel is one alternative fuel i find facinating.

Biodiesel sucks. I maintain semi's for a few local truckers and they have to change fuel filters 3 times as often as those who don't run bio. Once the temp outside drops below 20F they are changing filters once a month instead of twice a year. If there was an anti-gel additive that worked for bio it would be just as good or better than regular diesel, but so far nobody has found it.
 

bonus12

Backroads Driver
Jul 15, 2006
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Aaron J Williams said:
You just pony up your $3K for the new battery and the dealer sends the old one to recycling.

FROM WEBSITE:

"How long do the batteries last?

Li-Ion batteries are good for 500 complete charge/discharge cycles. One cycle consists of discharging the pack from 100% state of charge (SOC) to 0% SOC. Realistically, drivers will not completely discharge their pack. More likely, drivers will drive the car for 50 or 100 miles then plug it back in to charge it up to 100% SOC. Driving only 50 miles is only a partial discharge, roughly using 20% of the charge. If a driver continues to drive 50 miles every day and recharges every night, then after 5 days they would complete the equivalent of one charge/discharge cycle.

In estimating the life of our batteries, you can multiply the number of cycles by the range. Thus, 500 cycles times 250 miles/charge works out to 125,000 miles, but our estimate is a more conservative 100,000 miles. However the cycle life of 500 cycles is based upon performance that is more challenging to the battery cells than our application. We believe that our pampered batteries will achieve more cycles due to temperature control of the batteries and minimizing the maximum charge voltage."


- - 100,000 miles is quite a bit. just think though: electric motors require much less maintanance than mechanical. no oil chages, no fuel filters, no BHG :icon_razz , etc...