Water/Meth and High boost coming. Time for tuning help/suggestions/experience.

[CajunKenny]

Thus far, I've done all of my own tuning. The car hasn't blown up so I would consider what I've done a success.

I want to continue this "Non-Blowing-Up" trend that I've started so I'm looking for some insight from the people who have been down this road. There are no reputable shops in my area. The one shop that's here has NEVER tuned a car with water/meth.

I think I have a pretty go handle on most aspects of tuning with the exception of timing. How do you know how much timing to pull and where?

Considering all of the variables, is it just a matter of pulling timing where knock is detected or is there a rule of thumb or known areas to pull X amount of timing at X amount of boost?

I won't list all of my mods; but, if someone asks something specific I'll kindly answer.

Here are some relevant mods:
Adjustable Cam Gears w/Stock Cams
Built fuel system w/550's
Stock ECU
Maft Pro w/Timing Control
Water/Meth (Large Nozzle)
Boost Target = 20 psi

ANY input is appreciated! Thanks everyone!

 

[CajunKenny]

Bump...

 

[CajunKenny]

I just went out logged a run. At 4750 rpm and 16.21 psi, my timing is at 15.98*. 4750 rpm is also when Peak TQ and Peak Boost occur.

Does anyone else have similar data they can share?

 

[CPT Furious]

Hey CK,
I thought in the newer version for the Pro there was boost sensitive timing? Am I incorrect here? I thought Bob was talking about it on one of the threads...
Nice numbers, BTW!

 

[CajunKenny]

I'm not aware of such a feature; but, I put the question to Bob to see if there is. That would sure be nice!

Thanks for the compliment on my numbers and for the post! Maybe by keeping this thread fresh, I'll get some posts/data from folks that have been down the water/meth road.

Timing info would be great too!

Tekdeus has been a big help so far.

 

[CajunKenny]

You're right CPT. That feature is there and supposedly working. Once I verify that my timing control is working adequately, I'll give that a go and see what results.
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I found this shot of a Timing Log. This is from a MK4 running an AEM Standalone. The timing trace in this log is outstanding! The writing surrounding this timing log indicates that the "Rule of Thumb" is to set WOT timing based on the timing value that occurs at peak torque/highest engine load. In my case this would be ~15* of timing from the Peak TQ rpm and slightly increasing on up to redline.

Anyone have any thoughts?

MK4 Timing Log:

My Timing Log:

 

[grimreaper]

if only we could get the pro to produce a timing monitor curve like that! Your timing curve looks like mine, decrease to 5000rpms or so and a sharp increase after 5700. From what I've gathered, the stock timing curve is a futile attempt to keep top end power alive as the cams and stock ct-26 "peter off".

 

[CajunKenny]

I ran across this info a few minutes ago. Great info and helpful; but, still leaves a few questions to be answered...

How to tune your A/F ratio properly

Bad example: Tuner turns on water/methanol, increases timing and then removes fuel from excessively rich A/F.....THIS PROCEDURE IS NOT RECOMMENDED!!!!!!

If you remove the water/methanol what is your true A/F ratio? Alot of people don't know and this is the primary reason for poor results.

Depending on your ratio of water to methanol your A/F drop should be 1/2 to 1 full point drop.
50/50 mix: tune for 1/2 drop in A/F ratio.
75/25 methanol to water: tune for 1 point drop in A/F ratio.

Good example: You NEED to tune without water/methanol first. Then set your timing to something that is very CONSERVATIVE. An A/F ratio between 12-12.5:1 is ideal......THIS IS IMPORTANT. This is where your true A/F ratio is at.

Activate Water/Methanol mix. If your drop in A/F ratio is greater than what's listed above than you must either decrease pump pressure or use a smaller nozzle. Once desired drop in A/F ratio is achieved then you can start adding more timing, boost or both.

Once HP increases stop just set total timing to the timing that gave you the most HP. No need to back it down a degree or two to make it safer. Or you could back it down a degree or two for added safety.

 

[bioskyline]

whays the aux input??

 

[CajunKenny]

Aux Input 1 is monitoring Vf. Is that what you're asking?

 

[bioskyline]

yes thanks. im noticing the drop in timming advance when that drops off

 

[gottadiesel]

Hey Kenny - So how goes this project? Have you started yet?

I am seriously thinking of doing this same upgrade sometime this spring, so a couple of questions I have thought of and perhaps helping to keep this thread on the fresher side...

So I know the notes that you found on tuning in post#8, noted 12 to 12.5 AFRs, yet I do know that typically we have both tried to stay in that 10.8 to 11.2 range, so what are your goals with the meth? Are you going to tune for the same AFRs or are you tuning for the same and adding Meth to drop to the 10-10.5 range?

Are you planning to alter timing before getting on the dyno or are you just going to street tune and add additional boost?

Also how are you running your feed line? I was thinking of following the fuel lines back then transition with a rubber grommet into the hatch area? Do they give you enough line in the kit to do that?

Also when we last chatted about this, you noted that the line was perhaps a little thin that was supplied, have you thought of upgrading the feed line?

See what happens when everything else is working great... we always have to go find something else to do with the Supra... Proves my theory that we perhaps enjoy working on them as much as driving them:icon_bigg

 

[CajunKenny]

Hey Kenny - So how goes this project? Have you started yet?

Well, I'm going to drive the car ONE MORE TIME before I start!

That said, I've already laid out all the parts and the only thing I still need to go pick up is a relay. I have everything else ready to go so I will start either this week or next.

I am seriously thinking of doing this same upgrade sometime this spring

Where else are you going to get 60-90 additional 'Safe' Ponies for less money?!

So I know the notes that you found on tuning in post#8, noted 12 to 12.5 AFRs, yet I do know that typically we have both tried to stay in that 10.8 to 11.2 range, so what are your goals with the meth? Are you going to tune for the same AFRs or are you tuning for the same and adding Meth to drop to the 10-10.5 range?

Are you planning to alter timing before getting on the dyno or are you just going to street tune and add additional boost?

The 50/50 mix should change my AFR's +.5. Depending on nozzle size of course. I plan on running the largest nozzle in the kit which is 550cc and is rated for 400-650hp. I'll be on the lower side of that range so I might have to run the medium nozzle; but, we'll see.

The plan is to street tune to 11.8 without meth then add the meth and see if that puts me in the desired 11.3 range.

I'll run the stock timing map at first and then try to pull 7* up top.

Also how are you running your feed line? I was thinking of following the fuel lines back then transition with a rubber grommet into the hatch area? Do they give you enough line in the kit to do that?

Also when we last chatted about this, you noted that the line was perhaps a little thin that was supplied, have you thought of upgrading the feed line?

See what happens when everything else is working great... we always have to go find something else to do with the Supra... Proves my theory that we perhaps enjoy working on them as much as driving them:icon_bigg

The supplied line is 1/4" OD and .180" ID. They give 20' of it which should be plenty. I'll run it and see how it does.

I'm still indecisive as to where to mount everything. The easy route would be to mount it all up front. Even easier would be to use the stock windshield res. However, I will likely mount everything in the trunk.

I think following the fuel lines would be best.

Until I can get to a dyno, the plan is 20 psi @ 11-11.3 AFR.

 

[IJ.]

Personally I'd NOT use the Meth, get the AF's as close as you can on Gas then Add straight water as detonation suppression only.

I used a pair of Electric Ears to find the incipient detonation threshold with my 7M then tuned the water injection to that, adding boost/timing/water as needed.

If you can "Hear" detonation it's too late.

 

[Supra0089]

Personally I'd NOT use the Meth, get the AF's as close as you can on Gas then Add straight water as detonation suppression only.

I used a pair of Electric Ears to find the incipient detonation threshold with my 7M then tuned the water injection to that, adding boost/timing/water as needed.

If you can "Hear" detonation it's too late.

I was planning on going the methanol route as well, but you're making me nervous IJ by saying you would stay clear. Because I respect your opinion so much, I will also hold off on the Meth injection and wait to hear your reasoning as to why this is not a good route.

Here comes the dumb question: what is the difference as far as equipment goes between water injection and methanol injection. I have a snow perf meth kit sitting on my bench ready to go in once the rest of my parts come in (mainly turbo and lines), and was wondering if I could substitute that in for water injection instead of methanol.

A lot of local guys go methanol injection to increase boost safely, and this was a main reason why I was planning on going that route. Thanks to Kenny, Tekdeus, Turbotoy and others for being my pioneer on this step, and I'm waiting to see how their setup goes before I proceed.

 

[IJ.]

Injecting Meth is sort of a bandaid if you run out of injector/fuel pump and still have some overhead left in the Turbo, if you have enough fuel system to cover the air flow then you need to pull fuel from the Injectors to compensate for the extra "fuel" i.e. Methanol.

This can get a bit sketchy for a few reasons,

you never get the mix exactly the same each time

If you run out of Meth for any reason you better have a way of pulling boost back automatically.

Your WB02 is no longer anything like accurate so if the ECU is using it to compensate or you're using it to Tune you need to be really good at Math/Chemistry..

 

[CajunKenny]

Here comes the dumb question: what is the difference as far as equipment goes between water injection and methanol injection. I have a snow perf meth kit sitting on my bench ready to go in once the rest of my parts come in (mainly turbo and lines), and was wondering if I could substitute that in for water injection instead of methanol.

Meth kits will inject water just the same. So, we're both good there.

Injecting Meth is sort of a bandaid if you run out of injector/fuel pump and still have some overhead left in the Turbo, if you have enough fuel system to cover the air flow then you need to pull fuel from the Injectors to compensate for the extra "fuel" i.e. Methanol.

This can get a bit sketchy for a few reasons,

you never get the mix exactly the same each time

If you run out of Meth for any reason you better have a way of pulling boost back automatically.

Your WB02 is no longer anything like accurate so if the ECU is using it to compensate or you're using it to Tune you need to be really good at Math/Chemistry..

In your experience, is straight H2O better at decreasing Detonation than H2O/Meth?

As far as the mixture consistency goes, I had planned on running "Boost Juice". I figure they would be more consistent than I would...?

My whole reason for this injection is to combat the low detonation point that comes with our local 92 Octane Fuel. Financially, race gas isn't an option and E85 isn't offered at enough pumps for me to make that conversion.

I would be willing to try just water because it's cheaper and safer than having additional combustibles on board. In doing so, I'm guessing that 550 cc's of water would be a bit much. How much water to boost were you injecting?

 

[IJ.]

Meth kits will inject water just the same. So, we're both good there.



In your experience, is straight H2O better at decreasing Detonation than H2O/Meth?

As far as the mixture consistency goes, I had planned on running "Boost Juice". I figure they would be more consistent than I would...?

My whole reason for this injection is to combat the low detonation point that comes with our local 92 Octane Fuel. Financially, race gas isn't an option and E85 isn't offered at enough pumps for me to make that conversion.

I would be willing to try just water because it's cheaper and safer than having additional combustibles on board. In doing so, I'm guessing that 550 cc's of water would be a bit much. How much water to boost were you injecting?

There is an intercooling effect when using the Meth but I like the simpler to tune/safer Water injection route after seeing some funky AFR's with Water/Meth, also keep in mind 50/50 is still flammable, I found this out after testing a batch on the floor of the shed, I was using the washer bottle as a tank so was hosing the mixture on the screen thinking it was safe at that ratio.....

I ran 6x 110cc Nozzles at 160psi and a max of 80% duty cycle on the Pump motor..

There are limitations to just how much timing/boost increase you can get away with but it's something that needs to be done on a dyno in a safe environment if you're going to push the edge.

 

[CajunKenny]

Thanks IJ. That's definitely thought provoking info.

However, I think I'll leave the flash point testing to you and your shed!

 

[CajunKenny]

Doing a little more reading, I thought I'd post up some safety and related info:

(This was all taken from Wikipedia)

Safety

Since methanol vapour is heavier than air, it will linger close to the ground or in a pit unless there is good ventilation, and if the concentration of methanol is above 6.7% in air it can be lit by a spark, and will explode above 54 F / 12 C. Once ablaze, the flames give out very little light making it very hard to see the fire or even estimate its size, especially in bright daylight. If you are unlucky enough to be exposed to the poisonous substance through your respiratory system, its pungent odor should give you some warning of its presence. However, it is difficult to smell methanol in the air at less than 2,000 ppm (0.2%), and it can be dangerous at lower concentrations than that.


Fuel for vehicles

One of the drawbacks of methanol as a fuel is its corrosivity to some metals, including aluminium. Methanol, although a weak acid, attacks the oxide coating that normally protects the aluminium from corrosion.


Safety in automotive fuels

Unlike petroleum fires, methanol fires can be extinguished with plain water. A methanol-based fire burns invisibly, unlike gasoline, which burns with a visible flame.