bigaaron said:
Read the translated documents for yourself & you'll see that Saddam himself said likewise. Pretty hard to say he didn't after he said he did.
Warning, Iraq post. WMD? Nahhhh.....
- Thread starter rakkasan
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Read the translated documents for yourself & you'll see that Saddam himself said likewise. Pretty hard to say he didn't after he said he did.
NDBoost said:thread failure in 3..2....1...
in all honesty although i may not agree 100% with the reasons why we are there. I do however support the troops they are there, lets finish the fight and get em home and put this shit in the past
I also want our troops to succeed and come home safe. My disliking of Bush has nothing to do with the troops. They are just doing their job, and thank god for them. I just think it is time they came home. I also think their lives are far too important to send them to fight a bs war like the one we are in. While they are there I hope they kick ass and take names.
Grimjack, I am not saying you are trying to rewrite history. I am saying those that write history (teachers and publishers) are trying to rewrite it. And hide it by saying it is written by the winners. My mistake, I know you arent trying to rewrite anything.
No that isnt what you said.
Nice one bill clinton. You said none, and never were. You didnt know I was going to bitch slap that statement with fact. I will not let you get away with double talk like that.
And the truth finally comes out.
another link established??
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/011/990ieqmb.asp
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/011/990ieqmb.asp
Do you believe everything you read? Your first link has to be the truth right? After all, it's a *military* report.
Since you believe everything you read and I don't (and since we're talking about higher ups in Iraq) try Iraq's foreign minister:
http://tinyurl.com/nrdqb
Oops. Lol, did you ever consider your neck might be red because you have your head up your ass?
Since you believe everything you read and I don't (and since we're talking about higher ups in Iraq) try Iraq's foreign minister:
http://tinyurl.com/nrdqb
Oops. Lol, did you ever consider your neck might be red because you have your head up your ass?
That was my thinking too, reports can be easily fabricated and they are believed as truth without question it seems.
I don't know what to think yet, Or who to believe.. I support the troops and I want them back..I think it's a bit silly to think that oil does not play any part in the war and that its all about WMD's and how evil Saddam is or was.. There are lots of evil people out there and we do not attack them.
I remember the Iraq Mis-information Minister (baghdad bob) also saying that there were no troops in Iraq, nothing to worry about here. We're slaughtering the US forces everywhere...Nothing to see here.. Have a good day...BRB LOL...(so dont believe everything you see on tv or in the paper or the web) Suddam tended to kill the messengers of bad news. Even his kids lied to him for their safety.....
Bad Joke:
Q: How does GWB know Iraq had WMD?
A: He kept the reciepts!!
But what I really wanted to say was, let's keep this friendly and not attack each other here, but discuss this like adults please.
I remember the Iraq Mis-information Minister (baghdad bob) also saying that there were no troops in Iraq, nothing to worry about here. We're slaughtering the US forces everywhere...Nothing to see here.. Have a good day...BRB LOL...(so dont believe everything you see on tv or in the paper or the web) Suddam tended to kill the messengers of bad news. Even his kids lied to him for their safety.....
Bad Joke:
Q: How does GWB know Iraq had WMD?
A: He kept the reciepts!!
But what I really wanted to say was, let's keep this friendly and not attack each other here, but discuss this like adults please.
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jetjock said:
Hmmmm, you have nothing to offer in the debate, so attack the poster. I guess that you haven't read any of the documents captured in Iraq, you know, Saddam's, Tariq Aziz's, Lt General Husayn's, ect very own words saying that the did in fact have WMD that they were hiding from UN inspectors, right? That's OK with me, keep up the conspiracy theories & personal attacks, they're very becoming....
Seriously, if you'd like to offer something a little more substansive than personal attacks, I'll listen. If not, keep them to yourself, please. It will only lead to having the thread locked, which might just be your goal.
People believe what they want Joel. Most ignore the truth. Take these reports for example. I'm not saying they're truth but do you think our flag waving Floridian would even question them? He won't, the same as he only believes what the military writes.
http://tinyurl.com/qbw5q
http://tinyurl.com/z373p
http://tinyurl.com/pqocd
http://tinyurl.com/mnk9q
And maybe not the first time it's happened:
http://tinyurl.com/haeno
They were no WMDs. Ignoring for a moment all the intel that shows it was all fabricated, where are they? Why haven't they been found?
As for the troops (and remember, I served in two different branches of the military) much has been made of the recent poll showing that a majority of U.S. troops on the ground in Iraq think we should get out – heartening news for all those who oppose the war – what I find more amazing is the poll contained another revelation that should disturb anyone – anti-war or pro-war – who still believes in American democracy: the fact that some *85* percent of US forces in Iraq believe they are fighting to avenge Saddam Hussein's role in the September 11 attacks.
Saddam Hussein played no role in the September 11 attacks of course, even Bush has been forced to admit this indisputable fact, in public no less. It has also been confirmed by multiple investigations by the intelligence services, and even by the whitewashing, Bush-run, see-no-evil-unless-it-speaks-Arabic 9/11 Commission. Yet American troops have been thoroughly inculcated with this false notion – no doubt deliberately.
Putting deluded soldiers in such a position, fed with such lies, is a formula certain to produce atrocities and abuse. No wonder we have seen so many cases of American soldiers being quick on the trigger, quick with the boot and the fist, belligerent and brutal in tumultuous house searches, eager to "soften up" prisoners for CIA interrogators, and so on. Most of them believe they are there to avenge murdered Americans, and that anyone who opposes their presence – or even looks at them wrong – must be part of the system that (supposedly) produced 9/11.
The evil of this deliberate policy is great in itself; but the broader implications are perhaps even worse. And remember, this mass military delusion has been manufactured in an age when soldiers have far more access to outside information than ever before (despite the Pentagon's strenuous efforts to clamp down on anything Don Rumsfeld doesn't want them to hear).
What most Americans can't admit is that way too many of the Army and Marine grunts are there because they are the "mutt-people" of our culture...the economically discarded, undereducated and often the violent or those that can stomach violence. These grunt soldiers for the most part aren't children from upper middle class families who did well in school and whose parents could afford to send their children to college or who had strong social ties to other groups in their community. It's been well known for years how the military targets its cannon fodder. And trust me they don't look for them at Interlochen or Julliard, or Detroit Country Day, et. al. They look for them in the poor and rural areas, where opportunities don't abound.
So many of the recruits are by definition culled from the population because they can be easily manipulated and brainwashed by military propaganda. They lack many of the tools necessary to make better choices with their lives.
The power brokers weren't stupid when they abandoned the draft for an all voluteer army. The all volunteer army allows them to wage these wars of choice without much objection and resistence. But the price we are paying is that the all voluteer army consists of way too many bottom feeders that don't, can't, won't or aren't capable of thinking for themselves. This makes it all the more outrageous they're being sacrificed for a conflict that is based on lies.
http://tinyurl.com/qbw5q
http://tinyurl.com/z373p
http://tinyurl.com/pqocd
http://tinyurl.com/mnk9q
And maybe not the first time it's happened:
http://tinyurl.com/haeno
They were no WMDs. Ignoring for a moment all the intel that shows it was all fabricated, where are they? Why haven't they been found?
As for the troops (and remember, I served in two different branches of the military) much has been made of the recent poll showing that a majority of U.S. troops on the ground in Iraq think we should get out – heartening news for all those who oppose the war – what I find more amazing is the poll contained another revelation that should disturb anyone – anti-war or pro-war – who still believes in American democracy: the fact that some *85* percent of US forces in Iraq believe they are fighting to avenge Saddam Hussein's role in the September 11 attacks.
Saddam Hussein played no role in the September 11 attacks of course, even Bush has been forced to admit this indisputable fact, in public no less. It has also been confirmed by multiple investigations by the intelligence services, and even by the whitewashing, Bush-run, see-no-evil-unless-it-speaks-Arabic 9/11 Commission. Yet American troops have been thoroughly inculcated with this false notion – no doubt deliberately.
Putting deluded soldiers in such a position, fed with such lies, is a formula certain to produce atrocities and abuse. No wonder we have seen so many cases of American soldiers being quick on the trigger, quick with the boot and the fist, belligerent and brutal in tumultuous house searches, eager to "soften up" prisoners for CIA interrogators, and so on. Most of them believe they are there to avenge murdered Americans, and that anyone who opposes their presence – or even looks at them wrong – must be part of the system that (supposedly) produced 9/11.
The evil of this deliberate policy is great in itself; but the broader implications are perhaps even worse. And remember, this mass military delusion has been manufactured in an age when soldiers have far more access to outside information than ever before (despite the Pentagon's strenuous efforts to clamp down on anything Don Rumsfeld doesn't want them to hear).
What most Americans can't admit is that way too many of the Army and Marine grunts are there because they are the "mutt-people" of our culture...the economically discarded, undereducated and often the violent or those that can stomach violence. These grunt soldiers for the most part aren't children from upper middle class families who did well in school and whose parents could afford to send their children to college or who had strong social ties to other groups in their community. It's been well known for years how the military targets its cannon fodder. And trust me they don't look for them at Interlochen or Julliard, or Detroit Country Day, et. al. They look for them in the poor and rural areas, where opportunities don't abound.
So many of the recruits are by definition culled from the population because they can be easily manipulated and brainwashed by military propaganda. They lack many of the tools necessary to make better choices with their lives.
The power brokers weren't stupid when they abandoned the draft for an all voluteer army. The all volunteer army allows them to wage these wars of choice without much objection and resistence. But the price we are paying is that the all voluteer army consists of way too many bottom feeders that don't, can't, won't or aren't capable of thinking for themselves. This makes it all the more outrageous they're being sacrificed for a conflict that is based on lies.
I have to ask, what services did you serve in & what did you do? I personally have spent many years in the cannon fodder filled Infantry ending as a Squad leader & then served three more years as a Fire Support Section Chief in the National Guard. Just curious of your experience.
L
lanky189
Guest
lets keep it civil fellas
btw..if the war was about oil...i wouldn't be paying 2.49 a damn gallon, when before the war i was dropping 1.50.. think about it!
btw..if the war was about oil...i wouldn't be paying 2.49 a damn gallon, when before the war i was dropping 1.50.. think about it!
Hmmm. Maybe that's JUST what they want you to think..
When i say oil, I mean MONEY made off the sale of oil.
LOL i dunno man..
Why is diesel more expensive than gas right now? Anyone??
When i say oil, I mean MONEY made off the sale of oil.
LOL i dunno man..
Why is diesel more expensive than gas right now? Anyone??
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Hmm... I was done with this thread, but...
Lanky is right, keep it civil. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it turns out to be wrong in the long run. Hell, a good percentage of the people with incorrect opinions are basing them on incorrect information anyhow, so it's not the people here at fault, it's the media machine driving them.
Also, war doesn't have much effect on prices for anything. Supply and demand is the largest factor in pricing. Wars generally have 2 effects on oil ... they use a lot of it to fuel the war machine, and they make it difficult to get it out of or through certain areas.
Last, but not least... someone shows up at your house and tells you, "You stupid ass, pack your survival gear and get the hell out of Dodge because there are 400 angry people coming to lynch you!"
Do you:
a. argue with the guy about calling you a stupid ass?
b. take his advice and save your life?
The good guys aren't always polite, and the bad guys don't always wear black hats, folks.
Lanky is right, keep it civil. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it turns out to be wrong in the long run. Hell, a good percentage of the people with incorrect opinions are basing them on incorrect information anyhow, so it's not the people here at fault, it's the media machine driving them.
Also, war doesn't have much effect on prices for anything. Supply and demand is the largest factor in pricing. Wars generally have 2 effects on oil ... they use a lot of it to fuel the war machine, and they make it difficult to get it out of or through certain areas.
Last, but not least... someone shows up at your house and tells you, "You stupid ass, pack your survival gear and get the hell out of Dodge because there are 400 angry people coming to lynch you!"
Do you:
a. argue with the guy about calling you a stupid ass?
b. take his advice and save your life?
The good guys aren't always polite, and the bad guys don't always wear black hats, folks.
rakkasan said:
I served in the Air Force and later the Army Guard. There was a draft at the time but I enlisted even though my number and educational status excluded me. I was in law enforcement in both services. I'm also a veteran of another misguided conflict having served in Southeast Asia at the very end. Anyone who has seen the effects of war first hand forever learns it must be employed as a last resort and only for "legitimate" reasons. As I said, it's not my generation who'll have to pay for this mess.
So you served as an active duty grunt. Why? I'm not attacking you, just curious. Are you one of the "mutt people" mentioned? Is it because like so many recruits you were easily manipulated and brainwashed by military propaganda? Or that like many who enlist as grunts you lacked the tools necessary to make better choices at that time in your life?
How else can you explain why someone would enlist knowing what educated people understand about how the military operates? Who with a sound mind would completely turn over their health to them? Who would sign up today knowing that 400,000 soldiers from the first Gulf War have gone on disability from DU poisoning or some other pathogen they contracted in that war? Who would sign up for the military knowing how soldiers were treated during Vietnam? Who would sign up knowing soldiers from WWII were unknowingly subjected to biological testing? Or forced to take part in nuclear weapons tests?
Who would sign up knowing that the Feres Doctrine forces them to give up their rights to compensation for damages the military might willfully inflict upon them? Who would sign up knowing that our government is being run on behalf of large corporations to serve their needs? It's appalling the same right wing loons who argue that we need smaller government because government is bad don't have any problem with trusting government when it comes to what the military does.
The point is the lower levels of the military are populated by those who aren't exactly the sharpest tacks in the box. That said, I still have respect for the those who serve at the bottom but I come from a time when we learned the hard way the goverment is full of shit and that includes everyone at the Pentagon. Nothing has changed. Guys like you are too young to have learned this but your time will come.
All that aside, what your boy W has done is wrong in so many ways I don't even know where to begin. His rating is in the toilet now only because most of your kind has finally wised up to what a terrible mistake they've made. But not you, you're still a hold out. What does that imply about your critical thinking skills? What's really sad is all this could've been avoided if those who elected this clown had bothered to focus on something other than their own lives, at least when it mattered.
JetJock, Im going to ASSUME that you're much older, vietnam vet... Im also going to assume that you're a dem... Because the last time there was a draft, it was under a democrat president, and it was nam... Im also going to tell you that I "personally" think you are broken... Seriously broken... You're views, your outlook, your whole thought process is severely damaged...
How you can seriously sit there, and honestly think that if you're a "grunt" then you must be some uneducated moron, makes my respect level for you peg the zero... My father was a Marine in vietnam, a grunt, not an MP... He didnt police the base like you, he was crawling through the jungle: oh, and he enlisted, he wasnt drafted... The marines paid for his college, he got his masters, and guess what, dip shit, he went BACK into the military, this time the Army, and was a company commander during Operation Desert Storm, a supply commander, so he was constantly running to the front lines... My father was a TWO war veteran for this country, and was NINTY days from retirement with FULL benefits until YOUR president Billy Clinton rifted my father and thousands of other officers from the military... Wouldn't let him stay in for 90 f'n days so he could retire with all the benefits HE earned protecting the freedoms that duechebags like you enjoy on a daily basis...
You make this list, like everyone that joins is g'damn retard: you dont think they sit you down and EXPLAIN all this shit to you when you join? It's not like: SUPRISE! WE OWN YOU NOW! Things are different in the military now, they have so many more rights... I think you're military mindset is still stuck in the draft war days of vietnam, read up on what really goes on, or better yet, talk to some of the new recruits and see what they say...
Those who elected this clown? Look who the dems gave us: KERRY! You gotta be kidding me... WTF do you think would be different right now if John F'n Kerry was the president? What do you think that wizz would be doing? I love listening to you left wing tree huggers spew your bullshit... Lots of complaining, NO resolutions... Go leg hump Hillary... Be ready, that'll be the next offering from the dems...
Im just trying to figure out why you're such a bitter vet... Did you get spit on coming home? Called a baby killer? Or were you at the RALLIES! Throwing your medals over the white house fences with your boy Kerry?
Do you look at Enduring Freedom like another Vietnam?
Pres Bush's ratings are low, because the focus on the war... Period... Name other things he's done wrong... The economy is good... GDP is up... Unemployment is low... It's the war, it's the way the media handles it that's the prime reason his approval rating is so low... Always focus on the bad, never focus on the good... I hate it... I hate the way the media portrays our troops... I hate the way they disrespect the president...
Well, anyway, I dont really care what you think Jock... You're obviously traumatized from your experience in the war, 35 years ago... Your goverment lied to you, you hate your government, you hate America, Im sure you'd love to leave and go live in some communist nation or better yet find a nice dictatorship to snuggle up to... But do NOT ever insult MY country's troops who continually protect me, my family, my friends, my freedoms, my money, my livelyhood, etc... I'll support them and back them up everytime... You wanna hate on Bush, that's fine... You wanna hate on Cheney, that's fine... You wanna condemn the Pentagon, go ahead... But never insult the kids that make it so you can sleep easy at night, and give you the RIGHT to run that mouth of yours... Try to remember, that those "dumb grunts" are your gate keepers to freedom...
Im done, Im so seriously sick to my stomach right now...
Mark, Bobby, and all the other military guys that are on here, you got my support, and not ALL of us think like this guy...
How you can seriously sit there, and honestly think that if you're a "grunt" then you must be some uneducated moron, makes my respect level for you peg the zero... My father was a Marine in vietnam, a grunt, not an MP... He didnt police the base like you, he was crawling through the jungle: oh, and he enlisted, he wasnt drafted... The marines paid for his college, he got his masters, and guess what, dip shit, he went BACK into the military, this time the Army, and was a company commander during Operation Desert Storm, a supply commander, so he was constantly running to the front lines... My father was a TWO war veteran for this country, and was NINTY days from retirement with FULL benefits until YOUR president Billy Clinton rifted my father and thousands of other officers from the military... Wouldn't let him stay in for 90 f'n days so he could retire with all the benefits HE earned protecting the freedoms that duechebags like you enjoy on a daily basis...
You make this list, like everyone that joins is g'damn retard: you dont think they sit you down and EXPLAIN all this shit to you when you join? It's not like: SUPRISE! WE OWN YOU NOW! Things are different in the military now, they have so many more rights... I think you're military mindset is still stuck in the draft war days of vietnam, read up on what really goes on, or better yet, talk to some of the new recruits and see what they say...
Those who elected this clown? Look who the dems gave us: KERRY! You gotta be kidding me... WTF do you think would be different right now if John F'n Kerry was the president? What do you think that wizz would be doing? I love listening to you left wing tree huggers spew your bullshit... Lots of complaining, NO resolutions... Go leg hump Hillary... Be ready, that'll be the next offering from the dems...
Im just trying to figure out why you're such a bitter vet... Did you get spit on coming home? Called a baby killer? Or were you at the RALLIES! Throwing your medals over the white house fences with your boy Kerry?
Do you look at Enduring Freedom like another Vietnam?
Pres Bush's ratings are low, because the focus on the war... Period... Name other things he's done wrong... The economy is good... GDP is up... Unemployment is low... It's the war, it's the way the media handles it that's the prime reason his approval rating is so low... Always focus on the bad, never focus on the good... I hate it... I hate the way the media portrays our troops... I hate the way they disrespect the president...
Well, anyway, I dont really care what you think Jock... You're obviously traumatized from your experience in the war, 35 years ago... Your goverment lied to you, you hate your government, you hate America, Im sure you'd love to leave and go live in some communist nation or better yet find a nice dictatorship to snuggle up to... But do NOT ever insult MY country's troops who continually protect me, my family, my friends, my freedoms, my money, my livelyhood, etc... I'll support them and back them up everytime... You wanna hate on Bush, that's fine... You wanna hate on Cheney, that's fine... You wanna condemn the Pentagon, go ahead... But never insult the kids that make it so you can sleep easy at night, and give you the RIGHT to run that mouth of yours... Try to remember, that those "dumb grunts" are your gate keepers to freedom...
Im done, Im so seriously sick to my stomach right now...
Mark, Bobby, and all the other military guys that are on here, you got my support, and not ALL of us think like this guy...
Cry me a freakin river, jetjock. If you're scorned that you lost a few years because you were forced to do something you didn't want to do during your partying years, seek professional help.jetjock said:
LOL, I guess you're not attacking *me*, but you are attacking the millions that have had the honor of being Infantrymen, Red Legs, Calvery & the likes.jetjock said:
What makes you think that you're superior to me & my breathern? You carry a very elitist & closed minded attitude with you, but anyway, let's examine & compair.
My dad served for 32 years as a MP & recruiter, my Grandfather served through WWII & fought through five D-Days as a Medic. If that makes me what you call mutt people, so be it I am. But maybe I have a little more drive than you did when we served. I earned my bachelor's degree while at Ft Campbell. What's this, you say? How can he go to college & serve at the same time you ask? Because I, along with about twenty or so of my friends told our Company Commander that we wanted to. He placed us on the Army's Green to Gold program & we earned our degrees in between the training cycles. Hard for you to believe, huh? The Army actually wanted smarter people. The best part about it was that I didn't have to pay a dime, so thank you jetjcock for paying my way through school by way of your taxes.
I've been off active duty for 10 years now, and I've owned my own structural design company for 7 of those years. I've also continued on my education one your dime, thanks again.
Put on a tin foil hat & seek professional therapy.....jetjock said:
see abovejetjock said:
"arrogant, ignorant, cloistered sorts who possess neither care nor knowledge of what goes on outside their own little world."jetjock said:
Your arrogance knows no end, does it? You respect those who serve? Read what you wrote above again & say you respect those who serve with a straight face. How old, by the way, do you have to be to achieve such wisdom as to compair to your greatness? I'm not old, but I'm not young, either.
jetjock said:
Have you opened your mind in the least little bit & actually read any of the new information that's being released from Iraq? You either haven't or you have but your tin foil hat has you convinced that the goverment has made them all up in efforts to win you over.
I'm through with you. Reply all you want, but your opinion means nothing to me. You've insulted a large portion of this forum by calling those that live in the south ignorant red necks, you've insulted another portion of this forum by claiming that we lack wisdom due to age & you insulted yet another portion by claiming that those who served are incapable of common sense & advanced knowledge.
Congrats, I hope you've made yourself feel superior.
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L
lanky189
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