using exhaust pipe for intercooler piping?

[gilberjj]

Actually the supra is built to drag to a point, I am not sure of what all suspension work is done, and I am sure that more could be done and the mustang is mildly built for draging also, but nothing major. I do know for a fact they are both running slicks (not D.O.T drag radials but full on slicks) and they are both great drivers. Example, they switch cars and still run almost identical times in that respective cars.

HP is what is needed to sustain a particular speed not accelerate a load. Look at your average semi truck engine. They produce between 300 and 500hp and yet produce between 1000 and 2000 lb/ft of TQ plus the extensive number of gears with in the drivetrain. Try hooking your a 1000hp supra up to a fully loaded truck and trailer and try towing it (not going to happen). Ask any mechanical engineer whether gearing is a multiplier of torque or horsepower and they will all tell you that is torque. Here is another example of torque Vs Horsepower, look at your average F1 car, they produce almost a 1000hp and weight in at under 1600lbs (half that of an MKIV) and yet only average 9 1/2 sec. 1/4 mile times. This is because they only produce between 300 and 400 lb/ft of torque.

Im not trying to argue with anyone, just giving proof positive examples. Anyone who doubts me should go and do more research on HP and TQ

im still not completely with you on this....... if torque was the only thing that mattered (or even mostly mattered) in getting a car down the track, then how do you explain that all sports cars are gas powered.......??? im not being cocky or anything, im seriously asking, horsepower moves cars too. for example. adding a lightweight flywheel adds horsepower, but very little or no torque, yet the car becomes faster. free flowing exhausts on na cars don't add torque, they add horsepower, yet they get faster. also about the f1 cars, they have no suspension and if you have ever witnessed a kart car accelerate, its nothing short of amazeing. they aren't built for drag raceing. they are built to turn. road and track or car and driver (i don't remeber which) did a test of cars accelerateing flat out for 1 mile. the f1 car they had ran a 9.5 in the 1/4, but the amount of down force it creates even at those speeds is incredible. take off all that downforce, and that car goes a TON faster in the 1/4. also, first gear does like 70-80 mph..... not exactly helping 60 foot times. by the way, im at college in my 2nd year going for my mechanical engineering degree and i think both horsepower AND torque are cool

 

[CBLEGUY]

Lightweight flywheel does not add horse power, not to be nitpicking, but it frees up parasitic loss from the drivetrain. It allows to motor to rev more freely, thereby allowing more of the power from the motor to be transferred to the driveshaft.

here is a good write up on HP and torque.


http://www.revsearch.com/dynamometer/torque_vs_horsepower.html

 

[cjsupra90]

im still not completely with you on this....... if torque was the only thing that mattered (or even mostly mattered) in getting a car down the track, then how do you explain that all sports cars are gas powered.......??? im not being cocky or anything, im seriously asking, horsepower moves cars too. For example, adding a lightweight flywheel adds horsepower, but very little or no torque, yet the car becomes faster. free flowing exhausts on na cars don't add torque, they add horsepower, yet they get faster. also about the f1 cars, they have no suspension and if you have ever witnessed a kart car accelerate, its nothing short of amazeing. they aren't built for drag raceing. they are built to turn. road and track or car and driver (i don't remeber which) did a test of cars accelerateing flat out for 1 mile. the f1 car they had ran a 9.5 in the 1/4, but the amount of down force it creates even at those speeds is incredible. take off all that downforce, and that car goes a TON faster in the 1/4. also, first gear does like 70-80 mph..... not exactly helping 60 foot times. by the way, im at college in my 2nd year going for my mechanical engineering degree and i think both horsepower AND torque are cool

1) Being gas powered means nothing. I am curious as to whether you are meaning that as in gas (meaning gasoline and not say diesel) or electric. If you are meaning gas and not diesel, then you need to look at the Audi R8 racecar cause they are TDI diesel powered. If you are meaning electric, then that’s because electric motors cannot generate the torque needed. An internal combustion engine generates torque. Air/fuel mixture is burned in the cylinder and generates a rising pressure. This rising pressure forces the piston and down the bore, which through the connecting rod then is applied to the crank. Because we then set the crank into a rotation, we therefore generate torque (a rotational force or energy, laws of physics).

2) Light weight flywheels reduce inertia. In order to set an object into motion it requires a force (energy) to be applied to it to overcome its inertia. If the object (like a flywheel) is set in a rotation motion, it requires a rotational force (also known as torque) to be applied to it (laws of physics). The mass of the object absorbs or uses up a portion of the force applied to set it into motion. Thus if we reduce its mass (or even just relocate its mass, we effectively change the amount of force (energy or torque) need to set it into motion. On an engine this is called a parasitic losses. Parasitic losses are anything that takes or absorbs power form an engines gross production (e.g. alternator, P/S pump, A/C compressor, Drivetrain components, ect...) By lightening the flywheel, we do not change the power production from the engine, but we do change the amount used to rotate it so therefore being that we have used less torque to set the flywheel into motion, we have more available at the wheels to accelerate the car. It does not add HP, it simply uses less torque to accelerate it so more torque is available to accelerate the car. HP is a function of torque and the time it is applied. HP is not measurable, only torque is and then math allows us come up with a HP number. Do a bit of research into James Watts and the Watts Draft horse

3) Free flowing exhaust, causes an engine to produce more torque, and therefore more HP. This is because, if done correctly, a higher flowing exhaust allows more air (i.e. higher volumetric efficiency) into the motor which allows us to burn more fuel and therefore raises the BMEP (Break Means Effective Pressure) or the working pressure on the piston that is applying force through the connecting rod to rotate the crankshaft. Again, rotational energy or force is called torque.

4) F1 cars do have suspension (but this has nothing to do with this topic.)

5) Yes F1 cars do have tones of downforce, but when testing is done, Straight acceleration testing is done with little to no downforce. Or well at least according to a Ferrari Engineer that I have had the opportunity to talk with.

6) The reason why they go so fast in 1st gear is because the engines spin 18,000 plus RPM,s. if you spun a 7m engine to 18,000 RPM,s you’d go that fast also in 1st gear also.

Lastly, Remember that the definition of Horsepower is the amount of work done over a period of time and in the case of an engine, this work is Torque (i.e. rotational force).

 

[3p141592654]

Talk about thread derailment... Wow!

Here is a nice source of aluminum pipes (up to 7" for those who want lots of HP or is that torque... :icon_wink ). Courtesy of Dr. J's website.

http://store.airflo.com/intake-tubing.html

 

[gilberjj]

1) Being gas powered means nothing. I am curious as to whether you are meaning that as in gas (meaning gasoline and not say diesel) or electric. If you are meaning gas and not diesel, then you need to look at the Audi R8 racecar cause they are TDI diesel powered. If you are meaning electric, then that’s because electric motors cannot generate the torque needed. An internal combustion engine generates torque. Air/fuel mixture is burned in the cylinder and generates a rising pressure. This rising pressure forces the piston and down the bore, which through the connecting rod then is applied to the crank. Because we then set the crank into a rotation, we therefore generate torque (a rotational force or energy, laws of physics).

2) Light weight flywheels reduce inertia. In order to set an object into motion it requires a force (energy) to be applied to it to overcome its inertia. If the object (like a flywheel) is set in a rotation motion, it requires a rotational force (also known as torque) to be applied to it (laws of physics). The mass of the object absorbs or uses up a portion of the force applied to set it into motion. Thus if we reduce its mass (or even just relocate its mass, we effectively change the amount of force (energy or torque) need to set it into motion. On an engine this is called a parasitic losses. Parasitic losses are anything that takes or absorbs power form an engines gross production (e.g. alternator, P/S pump, A/C compressor, Drivetrain components, ect...) By lightening the flywheel, we do not change the power production from the engine, but we do change the amount used to rotate it so therefore being that we have used less torque to set the flywheel into motion, we have more available at the wheels to accelerate the car. It does not add HP, it simply uses less torque to accelerate it so more torque is available to accelerate the car. HP is a function of torque and the time it is applied. HP is not measurable, only torque is and then math allows us come up with a HP number. Do a bit of research into James Watts and the Watts Draft horse

3) Free flowing exhaust, causes an engine to produce more torque, and therefore more HP. This is because, if done correctly, a higher flowing exhaust allows more air (i.e. higher volumetric efficiency) into the motor which allows us to burn more fuel and therefore raises the BMEP (Break Means Effective Pressure) or the working pressure on the piston that is applying force through the connecting rod to rotate the crankshaft. Again, rotational energy or force is called torque.

4) F1 cars do have suspension (but this has nothing to do with this topic.)

5) Yes F1 cars do have tones of downforce, but when testing is done, Straight acceleration testing is done with little to no downforce. Or well at least according to a Ferrari Engineer that I have had the opportunity to talk with.

6) The reason why they go so fast in 1st gear is because the engines spin 18,000 plus RPM,s. if you spun a 7m engine to 18,000 RPM,s you’d go that fast also in 1st gear also.

Lastly, Remember that the definition of Horsepower is the amount of work done over a period of time and in the case of an engine, this work is Torque (i.e. rotational force).

sorry for the thread hijack, but this is too fun,

as for the tdi r8 (i thought about that, and was hopeing you wouldn't bring it up) in responce to it, that is apples and oranges, it (being a diesel) is given certain advantages, like engine displacement, and weight i think too. this is because they like variety and support new comers to the racing. also, i saw the audi's run at portland the last 2 years. 2 years ago they were gasoline driven and FAST, now they are tdi and FAST. they won the championship both years, so it could be argued that audi simply has the best team and resources. just a thought.

also, in the domestic market, (and in na imports) high horsepower (and torque) engines utilize head port sizes to help define the horsepower and torque curves. useing gigantic ports decreases air flow through the head at low rpms, reduceing overall torque, but increases high end horsepower. the smaller ports act like a ventury at low rpms and increase air velocity throught the head. however, all drag only cars have huge intake and exhaust ports to increase overall breatheing at the high rpms at the sacrifice of torque. lots of race engines at the track (1/4 track included) make more horsepower than torque.

this concept of bigger increases flow and smaller increases torque holds true in exhaust runners too. example, headers. contrary to belief, backpressure does NOT produce torque. when you have proportionally matched headers to the amount of power a given engine produces, the exhaust produces a vacuum effect and pulls the waste out of the engine, increaseing low end performance. but at the top end, smaller runners produce more and more restriction sapping top end horsepower. big runners, and small runners are a trade off either way. but EVERY high horsepower v8 going for 1/4 mile performance gets bigger primary runners as opposed to smaller more torquey header primaries.

alright, i gotta do my reading for class... peace

 

[CBLEGUY]

+1 on being fun!!! We are all so smart.. we should be able to solve all of the problems of the world..

 

[cjsupra90]

Actually no, the Audi's are not given any advantage. They have to meet all P1 regulations as does every other P1 car.

head porting that you talked about does not have anything to do with HP so to speek. The hole point is to Maximize Torque in the intended operating RPM range and thats all racing, not just drag racing.

Yes, I will agree with the backpressure and torque statment. The vacuum pulled from a proper set of headers is called scavenging and is not dedicated to low RPM. It all depends on the header design. Headers are designed to produce maximum scavenging at one particular point of operation and decreasing on either side of that point. Thats where the term tuned headers come from. They are designed (tuned) to opperate in a certain RPM range just as tuned intakes are and just as cams are too. Speeking of cams, because of the narrow maximum operating ranges for given specs and if they help in one range, they always hurt in another, is why we have the wonderful thing called VTEC, VVT, VVTI, VVTLI, ect... We have the best of both worlds. The same goes for Veriable Dynamic Intakes. All of this maximizes Air Flow into the motor, which again, allow us to put in and burn more fuel which again raises the BMEP which therefore applies more force to the crank and being that the crank is a rotating object and the laws of physics state that torque is a force applied to a rotating object the cranks output is torque.

 

[theKnifeArtist]

oh man did i stirr things up..