Supra vs. M3

[charman02]

So I have a co-worker with a 95' M3, with 3.5" intake, full exhaust system from the headers, but still has one piece of cat that he wants to get rid of, injectors(forgot if it was 21lbs or 18lbs or something like that) with another type of head (supposedly giving it more compression, very popular with M3's), stage 3 ecu tuning. He just got smoked by a saleman at work who owns a 04' WRX with some pretty good upgrades, I don't know the details of it, but for sure a STI motor swap in the WRX body.

Well, the guy with the M3 was bummed out, so he told me that I should race the guy with the WRX(I guess it's because I took him out for a ride the day before and said my car was fast( just HKS airfilter, HKS SSQV, BIC DDP, RSR 3" exhaust, 2 washers on wastegate, with some 20" rims, on a tired out motor with 198k mi, slightly leaking head gasket between cyl. 2 & 3) and so I told him, that I had a tired out motor. I told him i'm not fast enough. So I said, I guess I'll just give him a try first(M3 guy) even though I knew I was gona lose. So we make a right turn after leaving work, we were rolling on 2nd gear( I was a 2k rpm, a no no), I honk 3x and we mash it.

And let me just tell you, he just took off while I was trying to build boost(N/A cars definitely has better engine response as everyone already knows). So I got beat for sure, just as I has expected. So we come to the light, and he was convinced that I wasn't trying at all, and that I was only trying to make him feel better about his car after losing to the WRX. Well, I was trying, but my RPM's were too low to even make it seem like I was trying. So we're suppose to try again sometime this week on 1st gear roll. BUt I'm sure I have no chance, I've got only basic bolt on's with a tired old motor while he's already rebuilt his motor 2x with stage 3 upgrades for the M3's. But we'll see how it goes if it does happen. And yes yes, I shouldn't even be racing with this motor. I know this was long and not very interesting, but hope you guys enjoyed it anyways

 

[te72]

Put a decent set of lightweight 17's on your car and you'll fix a lot of the problem here... Might as well attach an anchor to the car if you're gonna run a wheel that heavy.

 

[charman02]

AHAHAHA, I agree. I only have it on for looks, it's better than stock wheels, and I got it for free

 

[shaeff]

So I have a co-worker with a 95' M3, with 3.5" intake, full exhaust system from the headers, but still has one piece of cat that he wants to get rid of, injectors(forgot if it was 21lbs or 18lbs or something like that) with another type of head (supposedly giving it more compression, very popular with M3's), stage 3 ecu tuning.

If he's got a 3.5" intake, he's either running 21# injectors (better) or 24# injectors (a waste unless he's cammed). A cat-back on the M3 does nothing really except for sound. Headers on a '95 will net some gains as the OBD1 headers are restrictive. The OBD1 midpipe is also very restrictive, he needs to swap that out soon, as that's good for +10hp give or take. Details on the head? Is he running something like a VAC motorsport head? The M3 is already 10.5:1 CR. I'd like to hear details on that, so let me know!

He just got smoked by a saleman at work who owns a 04' WRX with some pretty good upgrades, I don't know the details of it, but for sure a STI motor swap in the WRX body.

Well, the guy with the M3 was bummed out, so he told me that I should race the guy with the WRX(I guess it's because I took him out for a ride the day before and said my car was fast( just HKS airfilter, HKS SSQV, BIC DDP, RSR 3" exhaust, 2 washers on wastegate, with some 20" rims, on a tired out motor with 198k mi, slightly leaking head gasket between cyl. 2 & 3) and so I told him, that I had a tired out motor. I told him i'm not fast enough. So I said, I guess I'll just give him a try first(M3 guy) even though I knew I was gona lose. So we make a right turn after leaving work, we were rolling on 2nd gear( I was a 2k rpm, a no no), I honk 3x and we mash it.

I'd also like to know what the M3 is putting down for power. With full bolt ons on the e36 chassis, he's going to top out at around 250rwhp at a maximum with a VERY healthy motor. Sure, it's snappy, but it's definitely not fast by any means.

Get rid of those rims, grab a few mods to boost 15psi, and you will walk him. I'm serious. I own both (MKIII Supra and a '95 M3, and even with a 3.38 diff, close to full bolt ons, my M3 is nowhere near as fast as my Supra was at 15psi on a stock CT26- on which I made about 300rwhp/rwtq)

And let me just tell you, he just took off while I was trying to build boost(N/A cars definitely has better engine response as everyone already knows). So I got beat for sure, just as I has expected. So we come to the light, and he was convinced that I wasn't trying at all, and that I was only trying to make him feel better about his car after losing to the WRX. Well, I was trying, but my RPM's were too low to even make it seem like I was trying. So we're suppose to try again sometime this week on 1st gear roll. BUt I'm sure I have no chance, I've got only basic bolt on's with a tired old motor while he's already rebuilt his motor 2x with stage 3 upgrades for the M3's. But we'll see how it goes if it does happen. And yes yes, I shouldn't even be racing with this motor. I know this was long and not very interesting, but hope you guys enjoyed it anyways

10.5:1 compression ratio will do that. There's no reason any mildly modded Supra should lose to a US spec e36 M3, ever, unless you're on a track and don't have suspension mods. Straight line, the Supra will own it every time with just a few small upgrades.

I want details on the stage 3 upgrades. If he's cammed, I'll believe this story. If not, learn to drive, and throw a few more upgrades at your car and you'll murder him. There has been no US spec e36 M3 to break the 300rwhp barrier that I'm aware of that's not turbocharged, supercharged, or motorswapped.

Even if he's got the Sunbelt Sport cam kit, he's probably not pushing much more than 300bhp. Also, with way less money, you will have a MUCH faster car. LOL. Damn BMW's are expensive to modify, especially if staying N/A, which is why I intend to turbocharge mine when the Supra is done.

Details, I want them!

 

[Supracentral]

I squeezed 292 out of my e36, and it cost 3 times as much than it did to get my MKIII to that level. As you said, on the road course, that M3 will eat a MKIII alive... But in a straight line, even a mildly modded MKIII should own it.

 

[shaeff]

I squeezed 292 out of my e36, and it cost 3 times as much than it did to get my MKIII to that level. As you said, on the road course, that M3 will eat a MKIII alive... But in a straight line, even a mildly modded MKIII should own it.

You had an e36!? I want details! (you can PM me if you'd like/when you get time) Was that 292rwhp? (euro motor?) or BHP? And yeah, modding the e36 sucks, it's wicked expensive but it's such a fun car! Too bad they're built like poop!

I'm fairly certain that a lightened MKIII with some custom coilovers could hang with the M on the road course, though. Weight is a serious disadvantage to the MKIII as we all know. My M in stock trim was 3100lbs, and it's lighter than that now.

 

[mkiiichip]

lol, racing on BHG.

3,2,....

 

[charman02]

Well, I just asked the guy, but all he said was basic with chip. I know he gets his chip tuned at ANA or something like that. His chip has 2 chips stacked on top of each other( his BMW forums says that it looks as if it's on steriods) BUt yea, so, since he's not going much into details with that, that's all I can really say. So since you guys own BMW's also, maybe that can give you guys an idea??? BUt he's also getting ready to turbocharge his M3 also. He's already got the turbo, intercooler kit, manifold, he's just saving up to buy the supporting mods for it.

 

[shaeff]

AA doesn't make any stacked chips that I know of. The '95's have removable chips stock, the '96+ need to get software tunes. The only possible thing I can think of is if he has a W.A.R. chip from Miller performance, but for some reason I doubt it. (and even then, it's not going to net any more power than any of the other longer standing, proven chips like TRM, AA, Conforti, etc...

It's pretty easy to get a turbo tune burned on one of the chips, it's basically like burning a N/A tune. I'm curious to know what chip he's got, as the AA (Active Autowerke) chip should look like any other. For example, here's the Dinan chip I pulled from my car when I installed the TRM chip:
Dinan:


TRM (re tuned for new mods)


By the way, depending on what he does to turbo it, even at low boost he can expect 400hp easily. The s50 takes to boost very, very well, and is a wickedly potent car when turbocharged. Too bad the rest of the car will fall apart. LOL. (rear subframe, differential mounts, especially the front diff bolt unless he gets a reinforcement for it) The e36 is a cold hearted bitch. Even more so than the Supra. LOL.

 

[charman02]

Hey Shaef, so he said he's running the S52 head or something like that, he said you might know what he's talking about since you know BMW's

 

[shaeff]

The s52 head is the same as the s50 head. Unless he's got an s52 motorswap, there is no gain by swapping heads. To fill you in, the '95 M3's came with the 3.0L s50 motor. The 96-99's came with the 3.2L s52. The heads are the same. Hell, even the blocks are the same, except that the s52 is bored out more. (.2L more)

So again, unless he's got a custom built head from somewhere like VAC motorsports, he didn't gain anything by swapping heads. And the euro heads do NOT swap onto the US spec motors, so we're back at square one. LOL.

If he tries to argue that, tell him to visit www.realoem.com and punch in the part number for the cylinder head:

Part 11121703637 (Cylinder Head With Bearing Ledges) was found on the following E36 vehicles:

E36 323i Convertible, M52, AUTO (BJ83) : Cylinder Head
E36 323i Convertible, M52, MANUAL (BJ73) : Cylinder Head
E36 323i Coupe, M52, AUTO (BF83) : Cylinder Head
E36 323i Coupe, M52, MANUAL (BF73) : Cylinder Head
E36 328i Convertible, M52, AUTO (BK83) : Cylinder Head
E36 328i Convertible, M52, MANUAL (BK73) : Cylinder Head
E36 328i Coupe, M52, AUTO (BG23) : Cylinder Head
E36 328i Coupe, M52, MANUAL (BG13) : Cylinder Head
E36 328i Sedan, M52, AUTO (CD43) : Cylinder Head
E36 328i Sedan, M52, AUTO (CD23) : Cylinder Head
E36 328i Sedan, M52, MANUAL (CD33) : Cylinder Head
E36 328i Sedan, M52, MANUAL (CD13) : Cylinder Head
E36 M3 Convertible, S52, AUTO (BK03) : Cylinder Head
E36 M3 Convertible, S52, MANUAL (BK93) : Cylinder Head
E36 M3 Coupe, S50, AUTO (BF03) : Cylinder Head
E36 M3 Coupe, S52, MANUAL (BG93) : Cylinder Head
E36 M3 Coupe, S50, MANUAL (BF93) : Cylinder Head
E36 M3 Sedan, S52, AUTO (CD03) : Cylinder Head
E36 M3 Sedan, S52, MANUAL (CD93) : Cylinder Head

He will then note that the s50 and s52 use the same head.

 

[charman02]

Hey Shaeff, I got some pictures for you of his active autowerks chip. Tell me what you think, and I've seen these in person, they are definitely 2 chips stacked on top of each other. oh,.. and also, I made a mistake, he actually said it's the s52 block, not head. Sorry for that misunderstanding

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae342/charman02/IMG_0327.jpg
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae342/charman02/IMG_0326.jpg
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae342/charman02/IMG_0325.jpg

 

[shaeff]

Huh, I wasn't aware of the stacked design of the Active chip. Weird. I wonder what the deal is with it. I will do some digging.

Makes more sense if he's got the 3.2L block. He essentially has an OBD1 S52, which can be a potent N/A motor. Tuning them is much easier, and the extra torque throughout the range definitely helps. That makes much more sense, but you still should rape him with mild mods. LOL.

IMO, he should have stayed with the 3.0L block if he has plans to go turbo.