Supra Performance question (need a hint to what you think may be the problem)
- Thread starter Grandavi
- Start date
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?126682-57-trim-ct-26-Dyno
http://www.supramania.com/forums/sh...!!-404HP-405ft-lbs-the-wheels-CT26-on-17.5lbs
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?147458-New-time-11.81-117-CT26-powered-7M-NEW-RECORD!!!
Here's a few, there's a ton more though. These are only 57 trims.
http://www.supramania.com/forums/sh...!!-404HP-405ft-lbs-the-wheels-CT26-on-17.5lbs
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?147458-New-time-11.81-117-CT26-powered-7M-NEW-RECORD!!!
Here's a few, there's a ton more though. These are only 57 trims.
Well, after looking over how other's 57 trims are running, I think that the turbo I am running is fine, however its spiking. The car is doing its job correctly protecting my engine by cutting during spikes and I think the car wants to go more than what the turbo will let it. Initially, the turbo will hit and give me a really hard pull, then cut. I turned down the duty cycle to 40% which solved that mostly, but think I have to go down to 35% (possibly 30%) on the controller to allow it to hold better.
Also, going over my build, I think I have about .005 clearance on my rings due to the forged pistons so most of my "smoke" issues that happen during extended idle and occasionally during a very hard pull are just 7M issues with a lot of vacuum pulling some oil up the walls. Normal for a forged engine setup from my research. Engine seems healthy enough, just think that this turbo is built a little "off" or is older than it was advertised which means it will spool up to its max flow and then just basically run out of breath so although my car wants to go higher the engine just cant get enough to maintain. Definitely time to redo the turbo plan. (not rebuild, but find a different/better turbo)
I want to keep my manifold/downpipe setup so I am looking for one of the older setups that will allow me to bolt-on a better/newer turbo. I think turbonetrics bought the old greddy housing design, but I think my engine isn't killing itself (which was my main concern) so I have time.
Most of my troubles will be solved once I go standalone as well, because I am finding that while the Lexus AFM/550 setup is a good streetable power addition, it lacks the ability to do anything about how the 7M was "intended" to run. Your still running with the stock ECU setup and just fooling it to accommodate the increased air load. Its not dealing with any variances. Part of me thinks that a stock CT26 would almost be sufficient for this BPU setup although if I can get back to what the 57 Trim I had from Driftmotion used to run like I would much happier. That turbo would spool quick, pull hard, no cut and hold the power better than the 60-1. My current turbo just makes me feeling like I am tripping over my own tires lol.
Still haven't seen an actual dyno sheet of a 57 trim that answers my question mind you. Back to searching for one. Trying to find one that shows the boost curve along with the AFR curve just to see how other cars running similar setups hold and if they had the "flutter" I had and where their power dropped.
Actually.. just found what I am looking for at http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?322998-MK3-Dyno-Sheet-Thread
Updated after viewing a lot of dyno sheets:
Went through a lot of dyno sheets and apparently, what my "perfect" picture is in my mind isn't going to happen, so I need a brain adjustment.. lol.
The curve I was hoping for and what I was seeing on the dyno wasn't matching up, but that's because I had a wrong view of what "should" happen with everything setup correctly.
My car does what its supposed to.. spools (really quick compared to what I see on others) at about 300 HP/380 TQ and then drops off. My turbo drops off quicker and more than what I see on others (so my thinking there hasn't changed) however my power band is what its supposed to be.
My AFRs seem to reflect what is supposed to happen, too, with this setup so I am safe there, and wont be able to trim it much without doing the standalone.
I believe I am on the right path (self-educating still...) just need to do a bit farther and spend a bit more.. lol.
Feeling better about my engine though.
Also, going over my build, I think I have about .005 clearance on my rings due to the forged pistons so most of my "smoke" issues that happen during extended idle and occasionally during a very hard pull are just 7M issues with a lot of vacuum pulling some oil up the walls. Normal for a forged engine setup from my research. Engine seems healthy enough, just think that this turbo is built a little "off" or is older than it was advertised which means it will spool up to its max flow and then just basically run out of breath so although my car wants to go higher the engine just cant get enough to maintain. Definitely time to redo the turbo plan. (not rebuild, but find a different/better turbo)
I want to keep my manifold/downpipe setup so I am looking for one of the older setups that will allow me to bolt-on a better/newer turbo. I think turbonetrics bought the old greddy housing design, but I think my engine isn't killing itself (which was my main concern) so I have time.
Most of my troubles will be solved once I go standalone as well, because I am finding that while the Lexus AFM/550 setup is a good streetable power addition, it lacks the ability to do anything about how the 7M was "intended" to run. Your still running with the stock ECU setup and just fooling it to accommodate the increased air load. Its not dealing with any variances. Part of me thinks that a stock CT26 would almost be sufficient for this BPU setup although if I can get back to what the 57 Trim I had from Driftmotion used to run like I would much happier. That turbo would spool quick, pull hard, no cut and hold the power better than the 60-1. My current turbo just makes me feeling like I am tripping over my own tires lol.
Still haven't seen an actual dyno sheet of a 57 trim that answers my question mind you. Back to searching for one. Trying to find one that shows the boost curve along with the AFR curve just to see how other cars running similar setups hold and if they had the "flutter" I had and where their power dropped.
Actually.. just found what I am looking for at http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?322998-MK3-Dyno-Sheet-Thread
Updated after viewing a lot of dyno sheets:
Went through a lot of dyno sheets and apparently, what my "perfect" picture is in my mind isn't going to happen, so I need a brain adjustment.. lol.
The curve I was hoping for and what I was seeing on the dyno wasn't matching up, but that's because I had a wrong view of what "should" happen with everything setup correctly.
My car does what its supposed to.. spools (really quick compared to what I see on others) at about 300 HP/380 TQ and then drops off. My turbo drops off quicker and more than what I see on others (so my thinking there hasn't changed) however my power band is what its supposed to be.
My AFRs seem to reflect what is supposed to happen, too, with this setup so I am safe there, and wont be able to trim it much without doing the standalone.
I believe I am on the right path (self-educating still...) just need to do a bit farther and spend a bit more.. lol.
Feeling better about my engine though.
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If you wanted the engine to have a little more top end pull, send your 60-1 to albert for a rebuild and tell him to clip the hell out of it. You'll receive more lag but with more lag comes more top end pull.
I am thinking about buying a billet 57 trim from Albert, but first I am looking some others. I actually like the quick spool and can live with some top end missing because the way I drive the turbo seems to have the most power in fourth and because I am on public roadways by the time I shift into fourth if I let third go to where its falling off I am at about 100 mph already and that's a bit too quick. The deeper I get into this the more I think that I may want to do quarter miles with the car at a track (when we get one again). Realistically speaking, 300+ HP is too much for public roadways. Wish we had highways were the speed limits weren't so restrictive.. lol. Canada has none that I know of.
I'd like to know just how far my car would go. I've got the tires rated for it, only thing that would concern me is the suspension/brake setup.
I'm sure with a 57 clipped and a tune you could get maximum power out of it, but the only real way to get your nasty torque curve is with a newer turbo and getting a whole new manifold/downpipe. theirs no real cheap way of making power. although their is quick which is kind of the route you did. I as well with my upgraded ct12a's. but their definately making me re-think even bothering to put in my cams now. One day when I have the money for a new twin turbo manifold, downpipe and two new turbos she will see some real ponies with a nice 8000+ rev on my 1jz 
I thought most go single (randy had a little write up on his path with duals and ended up at 600 to the wheels with a single + meth injection. BIC performance )
I just did a cruise with mine with the turbo set to 35% duty cycle. Still had a cut at WOT in 3rd. Odd how the 57 trim never had a cut issue and felt much more responsive.
Because I still have to do the interior, rust proof, tint and a respray on the car I think I will step back into the 57 trim setup and go for a full t4 with external wastegate as the final stage. The stand alone upgrade will probably tie up all my issues with a good tune.
I just did a cruise with mine with the turbo set to 35% duty cycle. Still had a cut at WOT in 3rd. Odd how the 57 trim never had a cut issue and felt much more responsive.
Because I still have to do the interior, rust proof, tint and a respray on the car I think I will step back into the 57 trim setup and go for a full t4 with external wastegate as the final stage. The stand alone upgrade will probably tie up all my issues with a good tune.
Is there a gain setting on your boost controller?
You probably want to play with it. Increase the gain until boost is not steady then decrease a bit.
I'm not sure, but it may help
You probably want to play with it. Increase the gain until boost is not steady then decrease a bit.
I'm not sure, but it may help
Yeah, it was at 50, then dropped it to 40 (still cut). Now at 35 I don't get quite the spike I used to get although I did get one cutout.
What is bothering me is how the 57 trim never hit cut at all with this setup. The only difference in the build is the 60-1 that is in there now. If the 57 Trim wasn't spewing blue smoke, that turbo really felt good.
I think the ECU is setup to cut when it reaches 14 psi and I think my spikes are into the 14-16 psi range when it gets cut, so that may just be a normal thing. The whole problem now is that the 60-1 may be a perfectly good turbo after I go stand alone and right now its just trying to push too hard too fast for the ECU to accept. Lots of little things when your trying to get around really well built Toyota electronics...
Anyone have an opinion on the Innovate G3 Wideband? Thinking of going with this one or the LC-1 when I go stand alone. For now I have to really question how accurate the AEM UEGO is. Not impressed with its limits and its readings on startup change from 17 to 16.3 to 15.7 to 13.5 when I startup (always a surprise.. never sure what its going to show at idle when I start the car). It would be nice if it would be the same each time I start, but it keeps changing.. so I have to question its accuracy. I have chosen to ignore it for now. The engine runs the same each time regardless what it shows me.
What is bothering me is how the 57 trim never hit cut at all with this setup. The only difference in the build is the 60-1 that is in there now. If the 57 Trim wasn't spewing blue smoke, that turbo really felt good.
I think the ECU is setup to cut when it reaches 14 psi and I think my spikes are into the 14-16 psi range when it gets cut, so that may just be a normal thing. The whole problem now is that the 60-1 may be a perfectly good turbo after I go stand alone and right now its just trying to push too hard too fast for the ECU to accept. Lots of little things when your trying to get around really well built Toyota electronics...
Anyone have an opinion on the Innovate G3 Wideband? Thinking of going with this one or the LC-1 when I go stand alone. For now I have to really question how accurate the AEM UEGO is. Not impressed with its limits and its readings on startup change from 17 to 16.3 to 15.7 to 13.5 when I startup (always a surprise.. never sure what its going to show at idle when I start the car). It would be nice if it would be the same each time I start, but it keeps changing.. so I have to question its accuracy. I have chosen to ignore it for now. The engine runs the same each time regardless what it shows me.
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I was speaking about increasing the gain, that mean, after reading the quick start guide (thanks google), decreasing Response Value (RSP).
Reducing Over Boost Value (OPT) may also help.
Reducing Over Boost Value (OPT) may also help.
I played with OPT but not the RSP yet. I need to find a good road on Sunday to do tests, the roadways here are currently too full to do any pull tests and I haven't found a "private" road for that. My 4th gear pulls are good (no cuts, no spikes) but you can feel the boost drop after about 4000'ish rpms which I believe is just my turbo running out of breath.
Also, is 25 psi at the AFPR (with the denso mkiv flow which I think is slightly more than 260 lph) too low? I will run pig rich regardless on the stock ECU, just want to make sure I don't go too lean for normal driving. (and as I said before, I don't 100% trust the UEGO wideband...)
Feeling better about the car as I get some of these things tweaked, but I wish I had done my normal plan/buy/build rather than plan/SURPRISE!!!/build/buy/build/buy. I just hate doing that.. lol.
Also, is 25 psi at the AFPR (with the denso mkiv flow which I think is slightly more than 260 lph) too low? I will run pig rich regardless on the stock ECU, just want to make sure I don't go too lean for normal driving. (and as I said before, I don't 100% trust the UEGO wideband...)
Feeling better about the car as I get some of these things tweaked, but I wish I had done my normal plan/buy/build rather than plan/SURPRISE!!!/build/buy/build/buy. I just hate doing that.. lol.
Grandavi;1934402 said:
marquis of lorne, I think they should of just finished construction, once you get on that back secondary highway I've never seen a cop, always take that way to avoid highway 1 traffic halfway back to home. and as for the wideband, I'm pretty sure climate is a big factor in the bouncing around. thats why getting it done in a shop with a controlled enviroment to tune is always helpful in getting more static results.
btw I don't think your fuel pump will be an issue as your AFPR controls flow, your biggest worry is having a pump keep up when you need it. pretty sure I seen guys running 400 walbros with less hp then you and not have any worries.
Yeah, Im worried more about leaning it out now than overfeeding. I do know for certain that at full boost and WOT, I am overfeeding if Im at 35 psi. Its the wideband's odd readings that scare me.. lol. 25 psi should be fine with the 550's as Im not leaning out.. I don't think I have to worry about a leaner idle.
On Marquis de Lorne, you heading east or west? I haven't gone east on it yet.
I just love the "ring road" from 17th se to 16 nw.. nice long drive, fairly smooth roadway.. but I cant gauge how safe it is to open it up. Its such a nice wide open roadway.
On Marquis de Lorne, you heading east or west? I haven't gone east on it yet.
I just love the "ring road" from 17th se to 16 nw.. nice long drive, fairly smooth roadway.. but I cant gauge how safe it is to open it up. Its such a nice wide open roadway.
Grandavi;1934443 said:
umm well the direction I'm intentionally going is South, so I'm going to say south east.
Grandavi;1934402 said:
I'm pretty sure RSP is the one to tweak:
There is spike on the right of the pic isn't it?
Yes, that looks right, I think I have to lower my response value to get a smoother boost without such a high spike (which is what is probably causing the cut)
Where did you find that? I didn't think they had the HKS EVC-S boost manual online.
Where did you find that? I didn't think they had the HKS EVC-S boost manual online.
One of the firsts answer to HKS Evc-s manual in Google http://www.flickr.com/photos/39943237@N00/8185533250/
Envoyé depuis mon GT-N7100 avec Tapatalk
Envoyé depuis mon GT-N7100 avec Tapatalk
Very odd, because none if that was on the web last month.
I created a PDF version if the entire manual so I could view it on my iPhone because I found nothing on it when I searched last.
I created a PDF version if the entire manual so I could view it on my iPhone because I found nothing on it when I searched last.
It seems I have luck ;-)
I don't own an evc-s myself but understand pretty well these sort of documentations..
Hope this help ;-)
I don't own an evc-s myself but understand pretty well these sort of documentations..
Hope this help ;-)