strut bar myths

goliath

Fears no evil!
Mar 31, 2005
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Lancaster, PA.
www.cardomain.com
I would also like to see some numbers on this...

I have to agree with poodles. That stb's don't do anything for suspension, but do help stiffen the BODY.

Weather or not stb's improve handling still needs to proven.

Numbers are real, and feelings are for pussy's!:sarcasm:
 

turbogate

Life is Boost
May 18, 2005
425
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South, FL
I don’t think we are approaching this the right way. I took the time to read the whole Cusco test that they posted earlier. Cusco does not claim that their strut bar stiffens suspension. They claim that their bar help chassis from twisting or squeezing which indirectly allows the suspension/shocks to work a little bit more, therefore doing its job. If we believe that the MKIII strut bars helps even to a minimum to stiffen chassis flex (especially with the targa off) then it is helping the suspension do more of it's job instead of the chassis. That what I took from that test(even though it looked like an infomercial:icon_bigg If indeed Larry-A had a wheel come off the ground on his uneven drive way because of his strut bar as opposed to the cars' chassis simply stretching and putting all tires on the ground without the strut bar. That would easily translate in an uneven road where the chassis would twist in a similar situation instead of the suspension doing its job.

They did do a test that anyone of you us that has a nice curvy road or race track nearby can go and duplicate. I'm talking about the zip tie test on the shock strut. If we can keep the speed consistent in a corner with and without the strut tower bar, we could see whether or not the shock strut traveled more.
 
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Wiisass

Supramania Contributor
So this thread was long. And I actually read everything. And it was really just about strut tower bars. I don't get it.

Supras don't have struts, so they don't have strut towers, so there's no where to attach a strut tower bar. They have shocks and shock towers and shocks have nothing to do with suspension geometry.

Depending on the design of the bar, it can add stiffness to the chassis. You are tying together a wide open section of the chassis. You would really need a solid bar with no hinges to really do anything. And it would work better if it were tied into the firewall or other parts of the chassis.

To test it really wouldn't be worth the time. Especially a real test with any worthwhile data.
 

gofastgeorge

Banned
Jan 24, 2008
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Texas
Wiisass;999193 said:
So this thread was long. And I actually read everything. And it was really just about strut tower bars. I don't get it.

Supras don't have struts, so they don't have strut towers, so there's no where to attach a strut tower bar. They have shocks and shock towers and shocks have nothing to do with suspension geometry.

I didn't read the whole thing, it seemed so silly.
I can't understand how this thread has went on so long !

You and IJ are 100% correct.
The Mk3 is NOT a macpherson strut system......
The Mk2 is.
So yes, people with Mk2s, and Cressidas will see some difference.
But our Mk3s don't benefit from them at all.
IJ's deffinition of 'placebo bars' is spot on.
 

sneakypete

Regular Member
Jul 18, 2007
1,129
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Central NJ
gofastgeorge;999229 said:
I didn't read the whole thing, it seemed so silly.
I can't understand how this thread has went on so long !

You and IJ are 100% correct.
The Mk3 is NOT a macpherson strut system......
The Mk2 is.
So yes, people with Mk2s, and Cressidas will see some difference.
But our Mk3s don't benefit from them at all.
IJ's deffinition of 'placebo bars' is spot on.

lets kiss IJs ass some more
 

NashMan

WTF did he just wright ?
Aug 5, 2005
4,940
17
38
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Victoria BC
bean some time but after i installed mine i notice a big diff

better conering better off the line power it was great still got it on too











ps my motor hits my strut bar there my 3rd place ment lol







but on onther note the chassie is not a box so you can not look at it in that way do they work when they don't hit the motor lol

yes do they do what there suppost to stiffen the cassie up not so great from side to side but laterale they will help
 

IwantMKIII

WVU MAEngineering
Jun 12, 2007
2,477
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Perkasie, PA
Wiisass;999193 said:
So this thread was long. And I actually read everything. And it was really just about strut tower bars. I don't get it.

Supras don't have struts, so they don't have strut towers, so there's no where to attach a strut tower bar. They have shocks and shock towers and shocks have nothing to do with suspension geometry.

Depending on the design of the bar, it can add stiffness to the chassis. You are tying together a wide open section of the chassis. You would really need a solid bar with no hinges to really do anything. And it would work better if it were tied into the firewall or other parts of the chassis.

To test it really wouldn't be worth the time. Especially a real test with any worthwhile data.


This thread has gone on awhile. Personally i thinks its because people arn't differentiating between suspension and body flex. I know when i read this thread i took it as the STB was COMPLETELY USELESS. We know this isn't true as it can help with body flex. But at the same time body flex affects suspension and vice versa. They are linked together. The body is technically part of the suspension's grounding system, in any typical mechanism, the ground link is link 1 of the system (even though really the chassis is but whatever). In that sense, as a system, if link one is affected by something external, then the rest of the system is affected.
 

Wiisass

Supramania Contributor
Are you talking kinematics with the ground link? If so, the shock tower brace has nothing to do with that. The front suspension bolts to the crossmember which attaches to the chassis with rubber bushings. So if you're worried about suspension kinematic flex, replacing those bushings would do a lot more than adding a bar. I mean I guess they are tied together, but they're isolated from each other in too many places to make much of a difference.

It will help with chassis stiffness though, sometimes and to varying effect. And I guess if you're like Nash and the engine is hitting it and stopping the engine from moving when you get on the gas, it will help you put power down.

But for suspension stiffness, it's not worth it. Especially because I know a lot of the people have stock upper mounts which are probably old and a ton of other old, blown rubber bushings in their suspension which would be a better place to start if you want to get something more out of your suspension.

Here's a quick test to see if your shock tower bar will do anything. Take it off the car. Put one end in one hand and the other end in the other hand. And move one hand up and the other down well trying to keep the plates level to each other. That is the motion that the brace would see. So this just shoes that if it's a rigid piece, it will add a little stiffness, but it it's 3-pieces and has bolts attaching the plates to the bar, then it really won't do much. But even if it will do something, it's really not that much and the chassis iteslf is still going to be as soft as the weakest section. So even if you tighten up the front end a little, the center of the car could still be soft, especially with a targa.
 

Evilempire1.3JZ-GTE

SF what a waste of supras
Jun 22, 2006
1,382
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SoCal
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On the MKIII the strut bar makes absolutly no enhancment to the handling if you buy a 2 point mkiii strutbar it is strictly for looks.

There is a three point strutbar that I saw that bolts to the sheet metal of the firewall this would make a minimal enhancement.

The bigest factors that enhance the suspension in order based on flex.
1st coilovers lighter then the steel strut and pilow mount stiffer & adjustable.
2nd Sway bar
3rd polyeurothene bushings
4th low profile wheels/tires thick sidewall material and sticky tires like Z rated light weight rims
5th rollcage stiffens more the cabin then suspension.
6th 3 point towerbar (triangle desgin)
7th lighter aluminum larger brake kit.
8th nearly at absolutly no efffect is the 2 point strutbar


The only effective strutbar thats a 2 point is a 1 piece one welded not assembled by bolts where it could flex and on a thin and light FWD car like a 2000 celica GTS I had wheel hop verry bad since it was FWD it applies steering and traction on the front wheels with a verry thin frame and shell it had a lot of flex and front wheel hop bad! So i noticed a lot of help with a two point strutbar on this car other cars that benifit more from a two point would be like a CRX or integra or any other thin light FWD cars.

also in most cases the rear strut bars do help a little bit more then the front one because they are almost always a 3 point bar and almost always welded all together as a 1 piece assembly.

the best way to see how effective a strut bar is to jack only one front corner of the mkiii up and see how much the rest of the car flexes? mostly the syspension and rubber gives so coilovers and poly bushings help the most.

but you will notice the frame will flex the same and a minimal amount unchanged by a strutbar by jacking your car up under one front wheel.
 

T701jz

3M ENGINEER - R.&.D
Jul 23, 2005
657
0
0
Santa Clarita Ca.
Evilempire1.3JZ-GTE;999319 said:
On the MKIII the strut bar makes absolutly no enhancment to the handling if you buy a 2 point mkiii strutbar it is strictly for looks.

the best way to see how effective a strut bar is to jack only one front corner of the mkiii up and see how much the rest of the car flexes? mostly the syspension and rubber gives so coilovers and poly bushings help the most.
but you will notice the frame will flex the same and a minimal amount unchanged by a strutbar by jacking your car up under one front wheel.

First you said 0 enhancement and now minimal. I'm sure your calibrated eyes saw all these things but just like other advertisement (intake filters) claim it would gain H-power so people buy it... Even for a slight (minimal) H-power gain.
 

7MGTEsup

Formerly 'Down but not out'
Jun 14, 2005
614
0
0
England
turbogate;998476 said:
If indeed Larry-A had a wheel come off the ground on his uneven drive way because of his strut bar as opposed to the cars' chassis simply stretching and putting all tires on the ground without the strut bar. That would easily translate in an uneven road where the chassis would twist in a similar situation instead of the suspension doing its job.


Wait, that is one uneven drive way. Last time I jacked my car up the suspension had at least 6" of droop. The only way that could happen is if the car han no suspension like a kart chassis.
 

IJ.

Grumpy Old Man
Mar 30, 2005
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I come from a land down under
speed;999237 said:
Omfg.



IJ will know why my balls are now flapjacks.
LOL

gofastgeorge;999229 said:
I didn't read the whole thing, it seemed so silly.
I can't understand how this thread has went on so long !

You and IJ are 100% correct.
The Mk3 is NOT a macpherson strut system......
The Mk2 is.
So yes, people with Mk2s, and Cressidas will see some difference.
But our Mk3s don't benefit from them at all.
IJ's deffinition of 'placebo bars' is spot on.
It just basic engineering George I can't see how some of the smart guys here can't grasp that.

Wiisass;999240 said:
IJ knows about your balls?
Does just not in any detail thankfully!

sneakypete;999256 said:
lets kiss IJs ass some more
Pucker up ;)

Down but not out;999422 said:
Wait, that is one uneven drive way. Last time I jacked my car up the suspension had at least 6" of droop. The only way that could happen is if the car han no suspension like a kart chassis.

I have short stroked Shocks here with a lot less droop and I can't remember ever having that happen (My car will lift a wheel in hard high G cornering at times though)
 

Datsrboi

Loud pipes Save Lives
Jul 31, 2007
797
0
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Haltom Texas
www.cardomain.com
8d30_10.JPG



I believe ones like this actually do work since they are bolted to the actual car.
 

Facime

Leather work expert
Jun 1, 2006
2,716
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Corvallis OR
Datsrboi;999530 said:
I believe ones like this actually do work since they are bolted to the actual car.

not on the supra...do you know how thin the firewall metal is? Now if you punched through the firewall and attached to the bar behind the dash...you would see some benifit in BODY stiffness, but you still arent affecting the suspension.
 

Zumtizzle

Can't Wait to Be King.
Oct 21, 2006
2,825
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Sac-Town, NorCal
I remember Jose (then at Driftmotion, now at Kaizen) stating he has broken a few Strut bars drifting his car around. Surely, they must do something? ;)


I got mine for free, and looks quite nice. May or maynot throw it, maybe just for show and shines and SILV. :)
 

Dan_Gyoba

Turbo Swapper
Aug 9, 2007
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Alberta
www.gyoba.com
I got mine for next to nothing. I put it on while the weather was not so conducive to "spirited driving" so to date, I can't say that it's made or not made a difference. I expect that it won't, as I was/am sceptical to say the very least. I hear people insisting over and over again that they make such a difference, though how they possibly could make a difference to the suspension, I can't see. For the frame... Maybe, though how much... I don't know.

Most of the people that I've heard talk about the improvement are talking about targa cars with the roof off.

In the meantime, the extra couple of pounds isn't a big deal for me, and if it helps... Great. I'll be doing my own reasearch into what it does or doesn't do for cornering. These will be purely subjective, however I feel that I'm not going to be plagued by placebo effect so much as others may be. If I don't note any difference, I'll simply sell the bar off to someone else. I'm positive that I can get what I paid for it back out of it.

Edit: For that Cusco link... I'll admit that that Masami girl is cute. Sex appeal sells!
 

sneakypete

Regular Member
Jul 18, 2007
1,129
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Central NJ
Edit: For that Cusco link... I'll admit that that Masami girl is cute. Sex appeal sells!
nothing like hot asian girls advertising at shows and for parts..... thats why i love import magazines
but really.... she is alright. but nothing super. check out dsport. best asians and asian mixes