starting issues

[wildfire0310]

Well since this got no respond in Gen, I will try here now....

ok so i finally put the supra back together.. well at least enough to be trying to start it. (exhaust isn't all the way on and I still need to bleed the clutch)

Here is my problem, the car will crank but won't start.

Here is the work I did when the car was been worked on.

Pulled the tranny, to replace clutch hub
Pull the valve covers and painted them
replaced a missing bolt on my turbo manifold....

Tried to start the car and nothing,

notice the ground on the coil pack was iffy so I replaced it
noticed the O2 wires were bad so I slice around the connector(one wire at a time) and nothing.
Did a search on here and found about the CAS, looked at my wires and saw they were falling apart.
Sliced around that connector and still nothing.

I swapped batteries with my oddessy that was on my shelf, either battery needs to be jumped, but the oddessy has a stronger crank to it.. When I swap batteries I had to replace the battery terminals so they are new..(one of the main reason I swapped batteries)

I notice there is still a check engine light... I finally got rid of the old code 11 but now I have a code 51, which I did some research and everyone is saying it doesn't have to do with the starting issue.

Any help would be great...


Thanks

 

[hellraiser456]

bad coil ground...did you confirm you have spark?
Do you have fuel?...can you smell gas in the exhaust?

you need three things to start...or atleast make the motor fire...air fuel and spark...if one is missing the engine won't start.

now, IT may not run properly....but you need heat(spark) fuel(gas) and oxygen to create combustion right?. With those things present....the engine should attempted to start...like i said it may not run because that is when many other factors come into play. the code 51 shouldn't cause initial starting problems...it will cause running problems.

So that said...does the engine attempt to start (like start and die immediately, or maybe fire in one chamber)?

If not, make sure combustion can occur....and if you find one system failing (which you probably will) then you can go and find out why.

 

[wildfire0310]

bad coil ground...did you confirm you have spark?
Do you have fuel?...can you smell gas in the exhaust?

you need three things to start...or atleast make the motor fire...air fuel and spark...if one is missing the engine won't start.

now, IT may not run properly....but you need heat(spark) fuel(gas) and oxygen to create combustion right?. With those things present....the engine should attempted to start...like i said it may not run because that is when many other factors come into play. the code 51 shouldn't cause initial starting problems...it will cause running problems.

So that said...does the engine attempt to start (like start and die immediately, or maybe fire in one chamber)?

If not, make sure combustion can occur....and if you find one system failing (which you probably will) then you can go and find out why.

OK so I replace a few hoses today that were old and rock hard.

When trying to start it this evening, it was just on the edge of starting...

I know there is fuel now cause the d*mn thing would backfire after trying to start it quickly a few times in a row.

I pulled the no 1 spark plug wire and got spark from plug one.

Anyone with anything else to check...

I am going to look in daylight to see if maybe there is another vac leak... so close to get the supra up and run...

 

[ms07s]

MAf on mine got unpluged during some IC pipe work and I forgot to plug it in and it would turn over but not run. Just something easy to check.

 

[wildfire0310]

MAf on mine got unpluged during some IC pipe work and I forgot to plug it in and it would turn over but not run. Just something easy to check.

lol check that three times already... each time I mess with the intake piping i recheck that cause I did that with my DSM, but the DSM was able to run(not well) not like the supra

 

[jetjock]

Just FYI but a GTE should start with the AFM disconnected. I've yet to see one that wouldn't as long as everything else is working. Besides, the AFM signal isn't even used during cranking. Since there's not enough air flow for reliable Karman generation the computer substitutes for it until engine speed crosses 500 rpm. A GTE that doesn't start with the AFM unplugged has a problem. Usually it's because the STA signal isn't reaching the ECU or the IDL contact is open.

 

[wildfire0310]

Just FYI but a GTE should start with the AFM disconnected. I've yet to see one that wouldn't as long as everything else is working. Besides, the AFM signal isn't even used during cranking. Since there's not enough air flow for reliable Karman generation the computer substitutes for it until engine speed crosses 500 rpm. A GTE that doesn't start with the AFM unplugged has a problem. Usually it's because the STA signal isn't reaching the ECU or the IDL contact is open.

Thanks Jet for that info...

I am starting to wonder if maybe it just do to the cold, cause I know the cold start on the supra was even that good, she always had a little issuse when it was really cold out.

I wonder if it a combo of... cold weather + weak battery + small vacuum leak.


BTW the STA signal is the signal for what again???

 

[jetjock]

I'm only saying the engine should start with the AFM unplugged. In your case it might not because you have a code 51 but again, that won't be an issue if the AFM is plugged in. It's still going to effect your idle and timing though so you should fix it.

Cold starts are handled by the cold start injector and thermo time switch, both of which are fairly common failure items. The CSI gets gunked up while the switch just plain dies. Note I'm talking about cold starting enrichment and not warm up enrichment. Two different things. Warm up enrichment is handled by the ECU using the coolant sensor. Not important right now because the engine must first start before warm up enrichment happens.

STA is the "start" signal to the ECU. It needs to know when the engine is being cranked and uses STA and the CPS signals for that. Since the ECU does all kinds of things based on STA it's important. The signal comes from the same wire that makes your starter work and if I recall correctly it's also what powers the cold start injector. Loss of STA will usually set a code but not always. Depends on the situation. If you push start the car you're likely to see it while other times you won't.

Take hellraiser's advice and check the basics. Since you have spark (and didn't screw with timing) shoot some starting fluid into the intake to provide starting enrichment and see if that helps. Either that or drip some fuel the intake manifold and wait a couple of minutes for it to vaporize. Another way is to suck some in during cranking. You can use the vac line off the fuel regulator for that.

If it fires up you know it's a cold start enrichment issue. Check the CSI system and STA. If not it's back to spark, timing, and compression. Btw code 11 is bad news. If you see it again stop and focus on it. Not only will it prevent the ECU from working but it also masks all other codes. For example your 51 was always there but couldn't be displayed because of the 11.

 

[wildfire0310]

I'm only saying the engine should start with the AFM unplugged. In your case it might not because you have a code 51 but again, that won't be an issue if the AFM is plugged in. It's still going to effect your idle and timing though so you should fix it.

Cold starts are handled by the cold start injector and thermo time switch, both of which are fairly common failure items. The CSI gets gunked up while the switch just plain dies. Note I'm talking about cold starting enrichment and not warm up enrichment. Two different things. Warm up enrichment is handled by the ECU using the coolant sensor. Not important right now because the engine must first start before warm up enrichment happens.

STA is the "start" signal to the ECU. It needs to know when the engine is being cranked and uses STA and the CPS signals for that. Since the ECU does all kinds of things based on STA it's important. The signal comes from the same wire that makes your starter work and if I recall correctly it's also what powers the cold start injector. Loss of STA will usually set a code but not always. Depends on the situation. If you push start the car you're likely to see it while other times you won't.

Take hellraiser's advice and check the basics. Since you have spark (and didn't screw with timing) shoot some starting fluid into the intake to provide starting enrichment and see if that helps. Either that or drip some fuel the intake manifold and wait a couple of minutes for it to vaporize. Another way is to suck some in during cranking. You can use the vac line off the fuel regulator for that.

If it fires up you know it's a cold start enrichment issue. Check the CSI system and STA. If not it's back to spark, timing, and compression. Btw code 11 is bad news. If you see it again stop and focus on it. Not only will it prevent the ECU from working but it also masks all other codes. For example your 51 was always there but couldn't be displayed because of the 11.

Thanks for that help info.

It is getting some fuel during start up, due to the nice backfire that will happen right after I stop trying to crank the motor... but I am wondering if it is not enough to start the car, cause the backfire happens about ever third or so try. It starting to sound as if it just needs alittle more gas but isn't getting it.

I will try dipping some gas down the intake manifold and letting vaporize.

BTW I believed I solved the code 11 when I switch batteries cause the old battery clamps were fully tighten but could still be slide off the battery terminal. Once I get the car started I will hunt down the code 51.

My goal is to get the supra to DD status so I am trying not to half-a$$ anything.

 

[wildfire0310]

Well went out and tried the car again today... still nothing.

Its in the mid 70 so it not cold out..

I tried some carb cleaner in the intake and that didn't really change anything.. so I am thinking maybe not a fuel issue.

To best describe what its doing during cranking:

there is two rotational sound then a pout sound, then repeats.

Ok I have a few quick question that i believe I know the answer to already but who knows maybe I am wrong:

First: When jumping a car, with the dead cars battery light still be on??
Second: Would sitting two months cause the plugs to die?
Third: Is there a ground wire on the exhaust that I may have forgotten to hook up, cause I know the DSM had a ground on the exhaust that would stop the car from starting.

Thanks

 

[jetjock]

You said you have spark. If you have spark, fuel, correct timing and compression it will start. Find out which is missing. It's as simple as that.

1) Yes, the dead car's battery light will be on, at least until the engine starts.

2) Shouldn't, but you can always pull a couple to check.

3) No, the ground won't matter. What will matter are the grounds on intake manifold. I'm assuming the check engine light comes on with the key on. Besides, you said you have spark and could pull codes so they must be connected.

 

[cuel]

Why must people always try to start a car with a dead battery? Charge the battery, and make sure it holds a charge. If you don't have a charger, go buy or borrow one, or get a new battery. If you buy one(charger), get one with a 2 amp trickle charge, and leave it on over night. http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_02871225000P?keyword=battery+charger There's a good one for ya. Not the cheapest, or most expensive, but will do everything you want.
There's a ground on the trans mount that goes to the body at the cross member, 3 on the intake, 1 on the body right by the battery(?), 1 down on the block or starter bolt, none on the exhaust.

 

[wildfire0310]

Why must people always try to start a car with a dead battery? Charge the battery, and make sure it holds a charge. If you don't have a charger, go buy or borrow one, or get a new battery. If you buy one(charger), get one with a 2 amp trickle charge, and leave it on over night. http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_02871225000P?keyword=battery+charger There's a good one for ya. Not the cheapest, or most expensive, but will do everything you want.
There's a ground on the trans mount that goes to the body at the cross member, 3 on the intake, 1 on the body right by the battery(?), 1 down on the block or starter bolt, none on the exhaust.

Well I was thinking getting one of them to recharge the battery.

I will double check to make sure make sure the ground by the starter is ok, but I didn't see any ground wires but who knows..

You said you have spark. If you have spark, fuel, correct timing and compression it will start. Find out which is missing. It's as simple as that.

1) Yes, the dead car's battery light will be on, at least until the engine starts.

2) Shouldn't, but you can always pull a couple to check.

3) No, the ground won't matter. What will matter are the grounds on intake manifold. I'm assuming the check engine light comes on with the key on. Besides, you said you have spark and could pull codes so they must be connected.

1) that is what I was thinking
2) also what i am thinking, but I checked spark using a different spark plug not the one in #1 cyl , but I lost my spark plug socket so I need to pick up another
3)Yes the check engine light comes on, but I like I said I know the DSM everything would act fine, but the car couldn't start just do to the exhaust ground.