Springs and Dampers?

Poodles

I play with fire
Jul 22, 2006
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Fort Worth, TX
Silk Roads
Tein
HKS
Buddy Club
JIC
Zeal...

Pretty much anything that's well over the $1k mark is pretty decent. SOme like Buddy Club are aimed at full track use, while an HKS coilver rides really well, but will also perform well on the track.

Personally, I'd like to see whiteline come out with coilovers for our car, but it seems they are dropping their coilover line...
 

edi

New Member
May 17, 2006
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IJ. said:
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the need for the Shocks and Springs to work as a matched pair......

No use using a stiff spring if the damper can't match it.

When I had mine built they were tuned on a shock dyno and on 0 are just right for daily driving, for +150 mph I cranked a 1/4 turn into them and they're perfect.

yep... thats what i'm getting at too. i'm trying to find thee best combo... should i decide to go the spring and damper route (do i sound like a broken record yet?). so, wheres a good place to purchase a wide variety of selction of suspension components for the A70?
 

A-to-the-J

Panda™ and Pre-89 Gracer™
Feb 19, 2006
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Anaheim/West Covina, CA
edi said:
yep... thats what i'm getting at too. i'm trying to find thee best combo... should i decide to go the spring and damper route (do i sound like a broken record yet?). so, wheres a good place to purchase a wide variety of selction of suspension components for the A70?

pm Chris (CKanderson), he can probably get you what you need at a good price.
 

Wiisass

Supramania Contributor
Poodles, there's still problems with the valving from a lot of those setups. I've driven on them or analyzed the shock data and they aren't as great as a lot of people think. Like I said earlier, a lot of them run too much compression damping, making them feel a lot stiffer than they are and killing ride quality which in turn kills grip over anything other than a perfectly smooth surface. And on some of them I've seen rebound values of more than double of what it should have, which can mess up all kinds of things.

edi, look in the group buy section tomorrow, I will be introducing my Mk3 coilovers. They're going to be using Bilstein parts, valved to match the spring rates and the weight of the car. I have tested the valving on the road course, at drift events and on the street and I couldn't be happier with them. They ride suprisingly well for the stiffer spring rates. And they handle awesome. On the road course, the car was point and shoot, it was handling rougher sections of the course much better than the other cars out there. And I will be able to valve them however you want. So if you're looking for something more than a lowering spring and shock setup, then this is it. I will put my dampers up against pretty much anything and I think they will perform better. I will have all the info and data up tomorrow.

Tim
 

Poodles

I play with fire
Jul 22, 2006
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can I ask which ones you've studied?

a lot of people say the HKS ride nicer than ths tock suspension, but handle amazing. Tein's are a favorite, but I'm still unsure of them as they might be more hype than anything.

I'll be interested in your coilovers, but I doubt I can afford them (out of job ATM), but so far as I know you might have a great setup...
 

A-to-the-J

Panda™ and Pre-89 Gracer™
Feb 19, 2006
1,080
1
38
38
Anaheim/West Covina, CA
Wiisass said:
Poodles, there's still problems with the valving from a lot of those setups. I've driven on them or analyzed the shock data and they aren't as great as a lot of people think. Like I said earlier, a lot of them run too much compression damping, making them feel a lot stiffer than they are and killing ride quality which in turn kills grip over anything other than a perfectly smooth surface. And on some of them I've seen rebound values of more than double of what it should have, which can mess up all kinds of things.

edi, look in the group buy section tomorrow, I will be introducing my Mk3 coilovers. They're going to be using Bilstein parts, valved to match the spring rates and the weight of the car. I have tested the valving on the road course, at drift events and on the street and I couldn't be happier with them. They ride suprisingly well for the stiffer spring rates. And they handle awesome. On the road course, the car was point and shoot, it was handling rougher sections of the course much better than the other cars out there. And I will be able to valve them however you want. So if you're looking for something more than a lowering spring and shock setup, then this is it. I will put my dampers up against pretty much anything and I think they will perform better. I will have all the info and data up tomorrow.

Tim

i want to see this. :icon_bigg
 

Grimsta

Supramania Contributor
May 30, 2007
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Poodles said:
Silk Roads
Tein
HKS
Buddy Club
JIC
Zeal...

Pretty much anything that's well over the $1k mark is pretty decent. SOme like Buddy Club are aimed at full track use, while an HKS coilver rides really well, but will also perform well on the track.

Personally, I'd like to see whiteline come out with coilovers for our car, but it seems they are dropping their coilover line...

Exactly like Wiisass said, if you think you got to pay $1K or more to get good stuff, then you've bought right into their mass marketed ploy. I've heard from many people, not just supra owners, about the HKS's not being able to hold their own on the track. Also i've heard reports of Tein being like the APC of Japan. JIC's i've heard people say (this time mostly supra owners) that at high track speeds at time they feel the damping inconsistent and unpredicatable which does not instill confidence. As far as Buddy Club i've heard good things about them, but from the RX7 crowd but their rears seem too soft for us. Zeal I haven't heard anything about and really wanted a set myself until i got the Megans, cuz i couldn't afford Zeal. Lol, and like i mentioned in a previous post (This is what you want to hear IJ) their damping feels to match the spring great. Its not bouncy like ricey mismatched suspension and it doesnt bottom out the bump stops like an over damped suspension. Granted i havent shock dynoe'd them, but in practical application they feel good. I feel that testing through practical application gives you actual hands on experience that graphs and numbers can't. Although graphs and numbers are very important when doing research.
Plus Wiissass, i :love: LOVE :love: your Bilstein setup, all custom made. Its like suspension sex, lol. I didn't know that kind of stuff was available from Bilstein. I may have to try that out some day!
 

supraguru05

Offical SM Expert: Suspension & Vehicle Dynamic
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Dec 16, 2005
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Grimsta said:
I didn't know that kind of stuff was available from Bilstein. I may have to try that out some day!


lol i love people

those are nothing new they are race dampeners and as it turns out companies who make dampeners happen to make ones that are designed for racing hmmm lol. any how willass definitly knows his way around a dyno plot from a couple of his plots ive seem himpost he does a good job tuneing for the lower useful velocities and understands the real purpose of the high velocity regions. depending on his price ill consider it but i really am leaning toward the DA konis but the issue is i would have to run GC sleeves
 

Wiisass

Supramania Contributor
As for what I've tested or used. I've driven on Silkroads and they weren't bad for the price, but still leave something to be desired. They suffer from the too stiff compression curve like many of the others. Tein is another one that I've had a bunch of experience with and am not happy with. I was actually testing a mkiv on HA's at Pocono the other day and the dampers were definitely what was holding that car back. Too much compression made any rough part of the track upset the car a lot more than it should have and too much rebound would make the car get loose during any kind of hard braking and I felt like I was drifting when I tried to trailbrake at all. I had actually tested my setup in my brother's MK3 on the same course a few months back and it instilled a lot more confidence and made the car much easier to handle. I have not had a chance to mess with HKS very much, so I can't say much there. A lot fo my experience with Buddy Club and JIC has been similar to Tein but a little better. I know people have been successful in the supra community on Buddy Clubs, but I also know that it was probably the weak point in their setup. Zeal is one that I would like to mess around with more. I have heard good things about them, but for the price of any of the good stuff, there are much better options out there for the same price that will probably perform better. I've also analyzed Stance stuff and powered by max, D2, etc. I've looked a little at the Megan stuff and it seems like the Megan stuff isn't any better or worse than a lot of the others. In my opinion, if you're getting any of the JDM or similar stuff for under $2k, it's all pretty similar. That's why I started doing my setup because I wasn't happy with the amount of money I would have to spend to get a setup that I was happy with.

I don't want this to sound like I hate all the JDM stuff. I'm just tired of it and the hype and that no one will prove their damping even with just dyno plots. I just think most of it is hype and I haven't really been proven wrong yet. I also think a lot of people and their cars are moving past the point where an off the shelf damper is going to cut it for what they want. I mean if you're really trying to be competitive then most common setups are going to be holding you back.

Thanks Grimsta, I appreciate the comments. The setup I am introducing today is a little different than the prototypes I ran on my brother's car. I found a couple ways to cut costs which I can pass on to you guys. So it will be an OE replacement damper, which will be converted to be almost exactly the same as the Bilstein take apart dampers. I be using a spring sleeve for height adjustment and hypercoils springs because, in my opinion, they're the best springs you can get easily. This will also use the OE upper mounts to help cut down costs. Of course there are always different options for setups that I can put together and I could recreate the setup I have on my brother's car, but the cost would go up.

Supraguru, thanks for the compliments. It really depends on what you want. I like to use the Bilstein because I'm very familiar with the valving and know how to tune them to get them to work well with the car. But I can do that with any damper. So if you don't go with my Bilstein setup, I could help you get a Koni setup figured out. The nice thing about the Mk3 is with a couple machined pieces, you can fit most race car dampers. With the stuff I made for my brother's car, I could easily sway the Bilsteins out for a Penske setup or a Koni setup. Pretty much anything that uses 1/2" bearings on both ends. And using sleeves isn't really a bad thing. As long as the setup is designed to work with then and it can take the proper loads, it's no worse than having a threaded body damper.

Tim
 

supraguru05

Offical SM Expert: Suspension & Vehicle Dynamic
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Dec 16, 2005
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well the setup im looking at running now is using konis wet conversion kits

basically i send them my current 80 seris (koni yellow) shock and they make it a double adjustable and C clip the body then i run a sleeve and factory upper mount and away i go.

i would love to run a traditional threaded body dampener from them with the eyelets but im afraid thats more than the 340 a shock they would charge me to do this. if you know of a different shock model peneske moton or ohlin thats close in price thats a DA let me know
 

Grimsta

Supramania Contributor
May 30, 2007
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supraguru05 said:
those are nothing new they are race dampeners and as it turns out companies who make dampeners happen to make ones that are designed for racing hmmm lol.


Well yeah i've seen these right on Bilsteins website when i was researching my own suspension, but was dissuaded when it looked like I couldn't mount them. But according to those adapters i see now the sky's the limit
 

Wiisass

Supramania Contributor
Supraguru, I was thinking that the 3011 or 3012 would work for you, but they're a little more than the wet kit. I don't know the specifics on the wet kit and how they retrofit the adjusters to the damper, so I can't really say much there. Is it 340 per damper just for the conversion? If so have you factored in the cost of a rebuild and revalve, if needed? I would think if they're going to be apart, it would be smart to have new seals put it at that time. And then also revalving them so the adjustment range would be in a more usable range than before.

As for other DA shocks, there's not much out there that are not as cost effective. Do you really need a double adjustable damper? I mean sometimes they add more confusion than they actually help. But sometimes they are really nice to have. I'm just a big fan of the non-adjustable properly valved setup for most people. I've seen a lot of people hurt the performance of their car when the have knobs and stuff to turn. Adjusting the wrong end, adjusting the wrong way, just doing things they shouldn't because they thought if the adjusters are there, why not mess with them. But that's just my opinion and experience.

Grimsta, you should just get rid of the Megans while they're still kind of new and we can put something together that will totally outperform them.
 

Poodles

I play with fire
Jul 22, 2006
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I know who I'm going to for coilovers...

I'd be wanting something like your brother's setup though. Unless I can find some good pillowball mounts (HKS used to make em, but I think they stopped).
 

Wiisass

Supramania Contributor
Well that can be done. I just need to redesign the upper mounts so they're a little more cost effective and find a good machine shop to make the spacers and then I can use the same shocks I have on my brother's car.

I don't really like the HKS style ones due to the way they load the bearing. The bearing is much stronger when run in line with the damper, when loaded on the side like the HKS and pretty much every other upper mount, it's not taking advantage of the strength of the bearing the way it should.

But if this design that I have in my head right now works out as simple as I'm hoping it will, the cost of my upper mounts should be much less than whatever HKS offers.

Tim
 

supraguru05

Offical SM Expert: Suspension & Vehicle Dynamic
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the conversion is 340 thats rebuilding and revalving them the technician i talked to said that they preform just as good as their normal double adjustables just that they might start to fade a little sooner he said that in a 40 minute nasa race i wouldnt notice tho