[SOLVED] Aristo 2JZ-GTE swap .. Won't run, but everything checks out good..

[ifyouaint1sturlast]

EDIT 09/22/11 @ 4:16PM-
Please read post #34..
http://www.supramania.com/forums/sh...s-out-good..&p=1761381&viewfull=1#post1761381

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OK. Just got back.

Edit: FYI the TSRM for the MKIV (USDM) says that fuel pressure with the ignition switch on should be 33-40psi (looking at it right now) and then 24-31psi with vacuum. So yeah, now I'm running around 45psi that seems normal. So.. back to square one I suppose.

Tests I ran:
-Injector resistance was around 14.5ohms
-Coil pack resistance was within spec 0.7ohms or something similar (spec says 0.54-0.84ohms cold)
-Both cam sensors measured 1.14ohms (spec says 835-1.4ohms cold)
-Crank sensor (replaced) measured 1.16ohms (spec says 835-1.4ohms cold)
-O2 sensor was 6ohms and spec says 11-16ohms at 68F .. it's like 85F outside not sure what to do. I'll try a spare.
-Engine off, map sensor gave 5v between power and ground, and 2.5v between signal and ground
-Fuel pump is running at 9v (turns out I did wire in the resistor and circuit opening relay, durr)
-I *did not* test the fuel return return line yet but will do it soon to see if there's kinks in there.
-On my spare regulator: Got the car running (had to hold the throttle or it would die though) and fuel pressure went from 50psi to 55psi. This was a 2JZ-GE regulator which looks exactly the same but clearly isn't the same part.
-On my stock regulator: Couldn't get the car running at all, however the fuel pressure base was 46psi.

Spark/air/fuel/timing:
-I have spark on all cyl, but my plugs are all soaked in fuel at this point. Have some coming as well as an AFPR.
-I removed the fuel rail and cranked. All injectors spray. No injectors obviously leak or are stuck open.
-All coil packs have strong power at the connectors, as do the injectors.
-There are no vac leaks. Triple checked.
-Triple checked the timing belt, all gears line up to 0deg and with a chopstick in #1 spark plug hole it's definitely at TDC.

When the car was running, it wouldn't rev unless I pressed the throttle hard. Revved very slowly. Sputtered a lot. Smoke out the exhaust. I expected black smoke but honestly it was grayish. Could have been water since it rained all day though so I'm not really using that as an indicator of anything.

My aftermarket regulator and new spark plugs will be here soon. I've always learned with cars, you need to fix any problem you know of before you proceed, even if you think it's unrelated.

Can anyone verify what pin on the ECU the MAP sensor runs to? I want to make sure the signal is making it from the map sensor to the ECU because if the map signal was getting messed up somewhere along the way, the car might inject too much fuel, right?

So, WHY am I getting too much fuel? Or am I? Perhaps my cam sensor is bad and my ignition timing is off, causing no ignition, causing my motor to be doused in fuel?



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Just completed my Aristo swap and it won't start unless I crank, then disable the pump, then crank again it'll run off of all the excess fuel for a few seconds.

I'm seeing about 50PSI on a mechanical gauge at the rail with the key turned (pump @ 12v). Car will not run, that measure is with the engine off. Rebuilt the harness just in-case and everything is verified. Wiring at the injectors is verified, wiring at the coils, etc. All injectors and coils resistance tested. Coils are all giving out spark. Cam timing checked, re-checked, and re-checked again.

Replaced the regulator, same issue.

Thought I had a Walbro, found out from the PO I'm running a 290LPH pump. From my understanding, if the regulator was functioning, shouldn't the excess pressure be bled to the tank? Is this simply a case of my pump moving more fuel than the tiny return line can send back? Or is something else wrong?

I know it's over fueling on all cyl. because when the intake is removed all runners have puddles of fuel. Injectors are NOT stuck on (tested wiring) and no injector is leaking (did test with graduated cylinders) , and all injectors pulse correctly (tested @ cranking). Tested my map sensor on a buddy's car, tested igniter also. No codes or anything other than fuel pump ECU (78) but that's normal since I don't have a FP ECU, correct?

I have around $200 to fix this problem. Before I purchase anything I was going to run the return from the regulator to a bucket to test for blockage in the return line. If no blockage, the only solution I see myself is to grab an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and see if I can tune the pressure down a bit since it will be a larger diameter return (I assume the bottle-neck is the tiny opening in the stock regulator fitting where the o-ring is). Or add a resistor to my pump that is disabled via a relay somehow so that it never supplies more pressure than the stock regulator can return. (hobbs switch?)

Specs:
-1990 Supra MKIII
-Aristo 2JZ-GTE
-Completely stock (440cc) fuel system on motor
-Single 290LPH pump @ 12v
-Motor is single turbo'd

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

If you need more specs/info, you can check the other thread. Original thread got really crowded and the point was rather lost so I'd rather start a new more focused thread. The old can be deleted/locked if desired:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/sh...rouble.-No-codes-misfiring-more..-Added-video

 

[airhead04]

So you have no fuel pressure regulator? Just a gauge to monitor the pressure at the rail, correct?

 

[S.A. supra]

Try posting on supraforums. There are more 2j guys then on here. Might get more help over there.

 

[airhead04]

Try posting on supraforums. There are more 2j guys then on here. Might get more help over there.

Or get flamed to hell and back. haha

 

[ifyouaint1sturlast]

So you have no fuel pressure regulator? Just a gauge to monitor the pressure at the rail, correct?

I have the stock regulator and a gauge to monitor pressure. I was considering buying an adjustable FPR as a solution.

---------- Post added at 02:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:10 PM ----------

I just wish an expert would chime in, this isn't a 2JZ specific issue, any good mechanic could help me..

 

[91TurboDave]

Just completed my Aristo swap and it won't start unless I crank, then disable the pump, then crank again it'll run off of all the excess fuel for a few seconds.

I'm seeing about 50PSI on a mechanical gauge at the rail with the key turned (pump @ 12v). Car will not run, that measure is with the engine off. Rebuilt the harness just in-case and everything is verified. Wiring at the injectors is verified, wiring at the coils, etc. All injectors and coils resistance tested. Coils are all giving out spark. Cam timing checked, re-checked, and re-checked again.

Replaced the regulator, same issue.

Thought I had a Walbro, found out from the PO I'm running a 290LPH pump. From my understanding, if the regulator was functioning, shouldn't the excess pressure be bled to the tank? Is this simply a case of my pump moving more fuel than the tiny return line can send back? Or is something else wrong?

I know it's over fueling on all cyl. because when the intake is removed all runners have puddles of fuel. Injectors are NOT stuck on (tested wiring) and no injector is leaking (did test with graduated cylinders) , and all injectors pulse correctly (tested @ cranking). Tested my map sensor on a buddy's car, tested igniter also. No codes or anything other than fuel pump ECU (78) but that's normal since I don't have a FP ECU, correct?

I have around $200 to fix this problem. Before I purchase anything I was going to run the return from the regulator to a bucket to test for blockage in the return line. If no blockage, the only solution I see myself is to grab an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and see if I can tune the pressure down a bit since it will be a larger diameter return (I assume the bottle-neck is the tiny opening in the stock regulator fitting where the o-ring is). Or add a resistor to my pump that is disabled via a relay somehow so that it never supplies more pressure than the stock regulator can return. (hobbs switch?)

Specs:
-1990 Supra MKIII
-Aristo 2JZ-GTE
-Completely stock (440cc) fuel system on motor
-Single 290LPH pump @ 12v
-Motor is single turbo'd

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

If you need more specs/info, you can check the other thread. Original thread got really crowded and the point was rather lost so I'd rather start a new more focused thread. The old can be deleted/locked if desired:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/sh...rouble.-No-codes-misfiring-more..-Added-video

What did you get out of the return? Anything?

 

[ifyouaint1sturlast]

What did you get out of the return? Anything?

Didn't get a chance to work on the car, been a bit busy. Will be heading over there around 4PM tomorrow to diagnose. First going to do the bucket test, then going to wire up the 7M fuel pump resistor to my pump to see if it can keep the pump calm enough to run at stock pressures. I'll wire up the COR later if this works out.

I have an AFPR on the way though. I hope it gets here soon, I CANNOT WAIT to drive this car.

 

[Radial]

Very strange fault... but your 50 psi fuelpressure is normal when there is no vacuum inside the intake manifold. should drop to about 32-35 when idle is mooth due to vacuum in manifold is supposed to reduce fuel pressure... and increase pressure at boost 1:1.
I had a Volvo once with 50% higher fuel pressure than stock (60-65psi) and it never had issues with hydro-lock etz. The systems are very robust, and they need to be for OEM-applications..so a 10% fuel pressure increase wont affect things THAT mutch, so your problem is definetly not the fuelpressure.

I guess the timing is checked? What manf. year has your engine?


Since you have rouled out your MAP, i'm thinking about your injectors:
To be 100% shure about your injectors resistance, take a meter and mesure the resistance on your injectors without the connectors/power on. You should read 12-15ohms for std 440's... if you measure something like 2 ohms, you for shure dont have 440's...

wrong injectors, especially low-ohms on current hi-ohm systems can lock the injector drivers in the ECU causing stuck open injectors, and your fault makes perfect sense for such an scenario. After all, it's worth the try..

 

[ifyouaint1sturlast]

I'm starting to think it's not hydro lock, it's the cyl firing at the wrong time. However, the fuel pressure IS higher than normal. I checked the MKIV TSRM and it stated that with FP and B+ jumped and the key turned (engine OFF) I should be getting around 25-35PSI ..

But, if the fuel pressure doesn't matter, it's the timing. Cam sensor related then? Can't check the timing, as the car doesn't run..

Tasks:
-Going to do the bucket test with the fuel return just in-case.
-Ohm the injectors and report back.
-I've ruled out the map SENSOR, not the map wiring. Let me check the wiring from the map signal wire to the ECU.

Any other suggestions for my to-do list?

 

[Radial]

Stock base-pressure for your injectors are defenitly not 30psi. Thats like almost half the pressure of the world standard for injectors, and most information i get by google says 40++ everywhere on MK4 supras.
"Rule of thumb" regarding FuelPressure on almost all EFI petrol-systems are 45psi base pressure (no vaccum). What FP you get with vaccum connected is not that relevant, as long as it drops a bit with the vacuum-line installed (indicating the regulator is working). Fuelpressure can be pluss/minus 20% pressure, and the engine should still run pretty well on idle..its not THAT sensitive.

You CAN check the timing... its quite easy. You just need two standard sparkplug-cables. Remove the two front coilpacks, and link them to their respective sparkplugs with the cables. on cylinder number one (the first one); clip on your timing-light here and get a 12v power-supply. Get your friend to crank the engine while you observe. The timing-light should now give you an indication how good your ignition-timing is, but it should be pretty close to Zero on the scale (+/-10 degreeds) down at the crank there.

 

[ifyouaint1sturlast]

OK. Just got back.

Edit: FYI the TSRM for the MKIV (USDM) says that fuel pressure with the ignition switch on should be 33-40psi (looking at it right now) and then 24-31psi with vacuum. So yeah, now I'm running around 45psi that seems normal. So.. back to square one I suppose.

Tests I ran:
-Injector resistance was around 14.5ohms
-Coil pack resistance was within spec 0.7ohms or something similar (spec says 0.54-0.84ohms cold)
-Both cam sensors measured 1.14ohms (spec says 835-1.4ohms cold)
-Crank sensor (replaced) measured 1.16ohms (spec says 835-1.4ohms cold)
-O2 sensor was 6ohms and spec says 11-16ohms at 68F .. it's like 85F outside not sure what to do. I'll try a spare.
-Engine off, map sensor gave 5v between power and ground, and 2.5v between signal and ground
-Fuel pump is running at 9v (turns out I did wire in the resistor and circuit opening relay, durr)
-I *did not* test the fuel return return line yet but will do it soon to see if there's kinks in there.
-On my spare regulator: Got the car running (had to hold the throttle or it would die though) and fuel pressure went from 50psi to 55psi. This was a 2JZ-GE regulator which looks exactly the same but clearly isn't the same part.
-On my stock regulator: Couldn't get the car running at all, however the fuel pressure base was 46psi.

Spark/air/fuel/timing:
-I have spark on all cyl, but my plugs are all soaked in fuel at this point. Have some coming as well as an AFPR.
-I removed the fuel rail and cranked. All injectors spray. No injectors obviously leak or are stuck open.
-All coil packs have strong power at the connectors, as do the injectors.
-There are no vac leaks. Triple checked.
-Triple checked the timing belt, all gears line up to 0deg and with a chopstick in #1 spark plug hole it's definitely at TDC.

When the car was running, it wouldn't rev unless I pressed the throttle hard. Revved very slowly. Sputtered a lot. Smoke out the exhaust. I expected black smoke but honestly it was grayish. Could have been water since it rained all day though so I'm not really using that as an indicator of anything.

My aftermarket regulator and new spark plugs will be here soon. I've always learned with cars, you need to fix any problem you know of before you proceed, even if you think it's unrelated.

Can anyone verify what pin on the ECU the MAP sensor runs to? I want to make sure the signal is making it from the map sensor to the ECU because if the map signal was getting messed up somewhere along the way, the car might inject too much fuel, right?

So, WHY am I getting too much fuel? Or am I? Perhaps my cam sensor is bad and my ignition timing is off, causing no ignition, causing my motor to be doused in fuel?

 

[ifyouaint1sturlast]

Oh, tested ecu coolant temp sensor resistance also and it checked out to spec.

Also, if the MAP sensor pin on the ECU is 62 then I think it may be not connected. I'm trying to verify that right now.

According to the ECU model # my MFR date was 08/1993 to 08/1997

 

[Radial]

Good work.
When you say you have to push hard on throttle to rev it, and you are using a GE regulator (witch probably cant handle boost very well, but works fine with vacuum) my brain starts to pinpoint your TPS-sensor and its adjustment. Or your regulator could all be bad.... sounds incredible thogh

 

[ifyouaint1sturlast]

Good work.
When you say you have to push hard on throttle to rev it, and you are using a GE regulator (witch probably cant handle boost very well, but works fine with vacuum) my brain starts to pinpoint your TPS-sensor and its adjustment. Or your regulator could all be bad.... sounds incredible thogh

Thanks.

Correct. The GE regulator was on it when it was running. I certainly didn't boost, just tried to rev it, very sputtery and lumpy.

So you think TPS or bad regulator? I'll find out when my new aftermarket regulator gets here I guess. I really hope it's just a bad regulator but honestly.. I'm 5psi away from spec on my fuel pressure.. i'd say that's a really small chance of it still being my regulator right? I'm more at this point leaning towards MAP sensor wiring or ignition timing (cam/crank sensor).

I'm definitely replacing my plugs and installing the AFPR. Going from there.

I was considering begging my buddy with a perfect running 1JZ to come over, and we will one-by-one swap over everything from his coil packs, cam sensors, oxygen sensor, everything. One by one to see what makes a difference.

 

[Radial]

No, I cant realy understand why the engine would work with another regulator either...or even suspect your current regulator. if pressure is 30-40psi(ish) with vacuum , injectors are bone stock, and Base fuel pressure is 45psi, and there's no fuel leaking through the vaccum line (defective membrane in regulator) then I really cant see what Might be the issue here. Has this engine ever worked? Huuuge injectors on a stock ecu could also give problems like theese... the fact that you say it's a single-turbo, tells me someone has changed the injectors for higher performance with an Aftermarked ECU. But im all guessing now...

TPS-issues usually only creates some idle-problems, but the TPS is a vital component in the fuel delivery system. It tells the ECU the angle of the throttle-valve, that forces the ECU to increase power. With support from the MAP and the O2-sensor, the ECU now starts to add power (Fuel) to the engine based on the TPS, MAP and o2 signal.
While at idle, (no throttle) the TPS activates the ICV-function (Idle Control Valve) in ECU, and starts to regulate idle.

So, the TPS is a vital component... but I have never adjusted mine, and the adjustments are very limited, unless it's defective or installed upside down.

 

[ifyouaint1sturlast]

The single turbo was my creation. The motor came with stock twins and there was no sign of abuse on this engine. I checked the TPS and it's perfect to spec. The idle control valve opens when the motor actually runs (If I remove the hose I can feel the suction of air). I can hear it click after the motor is stopped.

It's rare that the engine runs though.

Why do you not suspect the MAP sensor? When my regulator and plugs arrive I will go from there. Fix what's broken first always.

 

[Radial]

You measured +5V to gnd on your map, so if there is a circiut failure, its on the feedback-wire to the ECU. If a circiut failure happens to be here, the input signal to the ECU will be 0v. Indicating a huge vacuum (restricting injectors ALOT) or the ECU will go in a "limp mode" because it needs at least 0,5v or so.

But if the MAP sensor-voltage is to high, then your MAP could be the problem.

Take a look at this 1JZ MAP- voltage diagram, and you will see what sensor-voltage you should be reading on your 2JZ MAP. They are almost exactly the same. (Voltage showing 2500 = 2,5v)

But I actually dont think your map is bad at all.

 

[ifyouaint1sturlast]

Okay. So if the map isn't bad then what the heck is the problem??

 

[Radial]

hehe Yeah, what could it be...

TPS checked, MAP checked, O2 Checked, Injector Resistance checked (but not P/N or injector-size?), IAT-checked...
Sparkplugs should noe be an issue though, it should rev/work with bad plugs.

Im running out of options... ECU failure(caps) or injector size? Maybe... all variables considering the sensors seems rouled out. =/
I dont know what the Cam-sensors realy affect, it would have made life mutch easier.... but I have no information about what they "control" or what the ECU "adjusts" with Cam sensor inputs. After all, the engine RPM is controlled through the crank-sensor.

 

[ifyouaint1sturlast]

hehe Yeah, what could it be...

TPS checked, MAP checked, O2 Checked, Injector Resistance checked (but not P/N or injector-size?), IAT-checked...
Sparkplugs should noe be an issue though, it should rev/work with bad plugs.

Im running out of options... ECU failure(caps) or injector size? Maybe... all variables considering the sensors seems rouled out. =/
I dont know what the Cam-sensors realy affect, it would have made life mutch easier.... but I have no information about what they "control" or what the ECU "adjusts" with Cam sensor inputs. After all, the engine RPM is controlled through the crank-sensor.

The computer uses the cam sensors to control timing, injection, everything. My buddy is coming over tomorrow and we're going to swap BOTH from his 1JZ to my 2JZ (same p/n) and go from there.. if that doesn't fix it then I honestly have NO idea what it would be. I'm about to rip apart the timing components to check the trigger wheel on the crank to see if maybe it's sending a messy signal due to being bent or something crazy like that. I'm desperate.

What about a bad knock sensor? It's got to be mechanical at this point though right? I should start checking valves and stuff??

Todo (in order from least expensive/time consuming to most):
-Open ECU and check caps
-Check part number on injectors to see what injectors I have
-Check MAP signal wire (regardless if it's the problem or not)
-Swap cam sensors with friend
-Perform compression test (since now I'm getting confused, even though the original test was fine)
-Uhh?? Call a priest?
-Rip apart front of engine to check for bent trigger wheel or other problem
-Find a shop with a scope and tow the car there to test the GE/NE (cam/crank sensor) signals for malformation


To recap..
-Good fuel pressure now
-All injectors spray, none leak, none get stuck
-All coil packs fire, all have great voltage at the connector
-All components ohm out fine now, o2 sensor, coil packs, injectors, water temp sensors, iat sensor, etc.
-MAP is verified working, will verify signal wire tomorrow but it should cause LESS fuel spray, not more.
-Fuel pump is denso tt, running at 9v at idle.
-Crank sensor was replaced, cam sensors ohm out perfect
-Harness rebuilt, no sensitive was was left unshielded. Cam, crank wires are all shielded one-piece (no splicing), coil pack and knock wires are spliced but nicely and shielded.

WTF.