So, Mazda is killing the Rotary again...

[te72]

Anyone care?

At the same time I'm a little disappointed (I was really looking forward to the 16X development!), some of the new 4 cylinder designs they've been working on have me pretty excited too. Direct injection on a lighter next generation Miata? Yes please.

EDIT: Here's the Jalopnik post on it, while a bit long-winded, it's a good read.

http://jalopnik.com/5833892/how-the-toyota-camry-is-killing-our-dreams

 

[Poodles]

It's the government again, really. Rotaries have never been good on gas, and in the US, the RX8's oil spec is for a far thinner oil than the rest of the world so they can get every MPG out of it. Shame...

 

[Typhoon]

Rotary engines are an emissions nightmare. They have a large combustion chamber with a lot of surface area, so tend to keep combustion quite cool, which results in incomplete combustion and associated emissions. I'm surprised Mazda got as far as they did with it, turbocharging certainly helped it's lifespan from an emissions standpoint.

 

[Poodles]

Though they haven't had a turbo rotary in their lineup for years...

 

[te72]

Though they haven't had a turbo rotary in their lineup for years...

Pretty easy to solve that I would think... I think that would be a win-win for all involved, really. Then again, Governement Motors might not like a silly looking Japanese fish-car powered by a magical spinning dorito to be putting their precious Corvette on it's toes... Stupid oil prices, killing the fun. For those old enough to remember, was this the mindset of the mid-70's? "Government is killing all our fun."?

 

[toyotanos]

My FB and FC were fun to drive, although I'd like to get behind the wheel of an FD on a track

 

[te72]

My FB and FC were fun to drive, although I'd like to get behind the wheel of an FD on a track

From what I've heard of them, there are not many cars that feel more "right" to drive. I'd love one someday, but other cars still have priority.

 

[Chello]

Getting harder and harder to get parts for aswell, the main factory that does the o-rings seals etc in Japan went down with that quake, the last I heard there is a massive wait on those sorts of parts. Not to mention to buy the factory stuff because alot of it is dis-continued costs you an arm and a leg. The early model stuff is a nightmare to find and can't really use RX-8 internals apart from the rotating assembly, higher comp lighter weight. They moved the exhaust port to the end/intermediate plates from the housing so doing a PP is hard, don't think anyone has done one yet but may be wrong. So if your into them buy up what you can when you can because pretty soon they will be extinct

 

[te72]

That's where the aftermarket comes in Chello... you rotards have a HUGE following from what I've seen, and there are some pretty good vendors out there to support your hobby, at least here in the States.

 

[HIGHSPEEDDIRT]

Mazda trix is a great place to get parts from, they deal with interior, exterior, and engine performance and race. The rotary has come real far from its initial debut in my opinion. I have in my lifetime owned 4 of them, an 84 -86-88-93 FD. I also believe that these engines dont need to be boosted what so ever in my opinion as the internal engine temps get extremely to hot in the first place leading to an even shorter life span. It definitely will be interesting to see what they will do for the future if at all.

 

[Chello]

N/A rotaries generally run alot hotter than turbo, the EGT's anyway. Yes they have come along way and yes people can and do produce alot of aftermarket stuff, but it's the housings and end plates that are getting harder to find. The end plates have a layer that is cast into them and no-one as far as I know yet can replicate that to produce a somewhat reliable motor, for all out race it's fine, I think it's racing beat or someone that does basically an all aluminum block. If the rx8 blocks weren't renisis blocks witht he completely different design it wouldn't be as bad.

 

[Poodles]

Yep, racing beat sells the end plates in aluminum.

I've always wanted to own an RX-7, but it would have to be a turbo as I hate the way the NA's sound. The other issue is just the completely different design is intimidating...

 

[te72]

If the rx8 blocks weren't renisis blocks witht he completely different design it wouldn't be as bad.

So... buy RX8 engines then? Or way too different to be feasible? I toyed with the idea of a Renesis in a 7 replica...

 

[Chello]

Not hugely different, you can use an rx-8 block as just that. You can't really inter change the plates/housings because the renisis have both the exhaust ports and intake ports in the end plates, where as everything else has the intake port in the plate and the exhaust port in the housing. I suppose in theory you could block off both ports in the end plate and use a PP housing, or block off the exhaust port in the endplate and try and use a early housing, but that's just in theory not sure anyone has done it. But if parts become to scarce people might turn to try doing that. If they can make completly new end plates and housings out of aluminium they should be able to use the plates and housings. When I said completely different I meant port wise and the renisis uses a 10:1 compression rotor aswell as alot lighter eccentric shaft

 

[te72]

Chello, your Greek is coming along quite nicely.

 

[Master_Spazez]

The article makes a good point, though. It's like focusing on a celebrity's new tit implants when a world wonder crumbles. Yes it's a bit extreme but the point remains. Of course we need our gas saving soccer mom 700 passenger car. But also what is life without heritage? What would Egypt be without the pyramids, Paris without the Eiffel Tower, China without the Great Wall? It's kind of like VW dropping the beetle. Sure it was gone for a while and when it came back it was kind of funky looking but the spirit lived on, even if the body was well bloated. Killing the RX-8 I think is a terrible idea. The rotary engine has been with Mazda since it's infancy (or just about) and would seem odd for them to just drop it when Toyota is about to debut it's very own "for enthusiasts" car. Besides Mazda's slogan on their latest commercial had something to do with their car being used for motorsports, so why drop their only enthusiast car? The new MX-5 stinks. I know the rotary will make its appearance in the future though. Just have to let Mazda rest its big fat head for a while.

 

[Chello]

Thanks te72

Master_Spazez
I wouldn't be so sure about Mazda re-doing the rotary, they have no reason to really. They don't run LeMans, they were banned, oh if only they had made the 26b to go into a road going vehicle or a factory option, then it would be alot different story. They don't run formula 1, they don't run WRC. So there isn't a whole lot of reason for them to redo it, for what is a minority.

It costs them alot of money to do them, especially with the renisis motor. For example, all of the old school rotors you have to hand grind the side seals to get them to match, the side seals are actually quite longer and you take them down by hand on the right angle and every side seal is a different length. Where as with the renisis they put alot more R&D into it, read cash, so now you just ring up, quote the side seal number and hey presto you have instant fitting ones. They are still slightly different but you can get ones that fit straight away without the time and effort and money on your part to machine side seals by hand.

As I said earlier with the end plates they have a coating impregnanted into them and they housings which people can't re-produce, sure they can make all aluminum ones but not designed for longtivity.

Early rotors were made alot differently so alot cheaper, I mean the only difference basically between the 12a and 13b is the housings are a little bit narrower on the 12a. The 10a died long ago and I feel it was because it was not viable to keep producing such a unique motor. Same with the twin dizzy 12a and then the 12a not long after. The 20b wasn't in many production cars and harder and harder to find, and now they are basically dis-continued, to the Australian market anyway.

I think Mazda are starting to move toward the more family car / eco-friendly market, the Renisis 13b was their answer to performance and cut to emissions, but I doubt they sold well compared to the earlier 13b turbo's so at a guess they would be sitting and thinking in the direction they want to go, and if it's cheaper and in their best interests to cut the rotary all together they will do it no matter the following.

Sad thing is every car manufacturer got the opportunity to by the rotary design but it was the wrong time at a fuel shortage and no-body wanted to touch them for how much fuel they used and Mazda bought the patent along with it a cult following. Sure there are some like the Suzuki motorbike with a small rotary, some aircraft etc.

The man himself


Couple of randoms

 

[te72]

It's kind of like VW dropping the beetle. Sure it was gone for a while and when it came back it was kind of funky looking but the spirit lived on, even if the body was well bloated. Killing the RX-8 I think is a terrible idea. The rotary engine has been with Mazda since it's infancy (or just about) and would seem odd for them to just drop it when Toyota is about to debut it's very own "for enthusiasts" car. Besides Mazda's slogan on their latest commercial had something to do with their car being used for motorsports, so why drop their only enthusiast car? The new MX-5 stinks. I know the rotary will make its appearance in the future though. Just have to let Mazda rest its big fat head for a while.

VW never killed off the Beetle, just to certain markets. I believe the first and second gen Beetle overlapped production times... and as for the NC MX5, is it as good as the NB? I don't think so, but I'd be hard pressed to say they're any worse. They certainly look better, at least the refreshed later NC does.

I wouldn't be so sure about Mazda re-doing the rotary, they have no reason to really. They don't run LeMans, they were banned, oh if only they had made the 26b to go into a road going vehicle or a factory option, then it would be alot different story. They don't run formula 1, they don't run WRC. So there isn't a whole lot of reason for them to redo it, for what is a minority.

There's a reason they don't use rotary engines in WRC... you need torque, NOW. Motor might actually be well suited for a formula style race car, but there are rules pertaining to what type (cylinder count, aspiration), displacement, power (?), etc, in F1. Would be cool to make a car for Touring car racing...

 

[Poodles]

The new MX-5 stinks.

Mmmmm, I wouldn't say it stinks. It's still the only car in it's segment, and the NC is more powerful and not much heavier than the cars before it.

As I said earlier with the end plates they have a coating impregnanted into them and they housings which people can't re-produce, sure they can make all aluminum ones but not designed for longtivity.

You keep talking about the coating, when the coating IS able to be replicated, in fact, you can get better than the factory coating.

and as for the NC MX5, is it as good as the NB? I don't think so, but I'd be hard pressed to say they're any worse. They certainly look better, at least the refreshed later NC does.

NC is more powerful and not much heavier than the NB (unless you get the retractable hardtop). The NC doesn't have a turbocharged version though. The NB was designed to look like the FD RX-7, while the NC looks like it ate the NB :3d_frown: The redesigned NC looks better, but it still looks bloated and not as sleek as the NB.

NA can be made to look good, but it takes a lot of non-factory parts to get rid of it's cuteness.

 

[te72]

NC is more powerful and not much heavier than the NB (unless you get the retractable hardtop). The NC doesn't have a turbocharged version though. The NB was designed to look like the FD RX-7, while the NC looks like it ate the NB :3d_frown: The redesigned NC looks better, but it still looks bloated and not as sleek as the NB.

NA can be made to look good, but it takes a lot of non-factory parts to get rid of it's cuteness.

I prefer the looks of the NB to the early NC, especially when talking hardtops. It's not quite the weight thing that gets me about the NB, it's the fact they're getting dirt cheap, and the catalog of things FM can do to those things is like a track car's wet dream... Hell, I raced an NC once upon a time in my NB, won in the long run, somehow.

As for the NA, I had one, it just didn't seem like the quality was quite as high as the NB. Granted, all that quality added was an extra 100lbs and worse (leather!!!!) seats. It had air conditioning, the NA was black on black, and I was moving to Phoenix, so... the NA had to go haha.

Speaking of Miatas, you never did mention more about the one that your mom picked up?