Should I use MHG or Felpro?? decisions decisions decisions!!! need help

[Poodles]

Find some locals to help you, as working on these cars is as easy as following directions in the TSRM most of the time.

Labor ends up being the largest chunk of doing it, the parts aren't that expensive...

 

[paul0075]

if your spending 5k to rebuild a motor, i hope to god its getting forged internals with that... im UNDER 3k and i have forged internals, fully balanced, arp main studs, arp head studs, im talkin i went all out. you can do an OEM rebuild for EASILY under 3k as it wont need that much machine work, and if you just get the arp head studs and the MHG you'll be set for whatever you throw at the engine!

Not really, I was quoted a little over $5k, 1000 for head re-built 5 angle job, 2500 for labor alone for taking off head and other components and put things back together, and the rest was parts; Cometic head gasket and other gaskets and rings, water pump, belts and hoses..
Not even touching the block or block internals at this point, NOT EVEN changing the oil pump... I mean what if I spend $5k on all that and the engine developed rod knock or .. or... that $5k is gone down the drain..
That's what discouraged me from going MHG and doing either OEM or Felpro.
I personally prefer MHG, I am anal about perfection and doing the job right the 1st time without cutting corners.. But for that price, its not worth it..
I thought for little over 5 G's I can get my entire engine done without any hick ups.. And maybe have extra to get good brakes

 

[paul0075]

Find some locals to help you, as working on these cars is as easy as following directions in the TSRM most of the time.

Labor ends up being the largest chunk of doing it, the parts aren't that expensive...

I don't know any locals who would help me..:hs:
I can follow direction from TSRM, I am a Telecom technician and very comfortable with tools..but I don't have a garage to do the work :icon_frow
I agree on the parts prices, I can shop around and find good deals..

 

[NewWestSupras]

I'd keep looking for a fellow 'mania local to take the car to. For the kind of prices you've been quoted, you could get a complete rebuild with forged internals, and swap too. Perhaps you'd be one of the lucky people who could just slap an oem gasket on and get another 100k, but that scenario always raises nagging questions in my mind. However, if money's tight now, I'm almost positive there would be someone local that could do an oem + arps for a reasonable price. Then you could save money for a complete rebuild if desired sometime down the road...gl

 

[gtsfirefighter]

Well first I'll state my opinion and that would be to rebuild with a MHG. My rebuild cost about $2500 but I removed and installed the motor myself. I had the head and block rebuilt and used a Titan MS HG. If it's done right you have that piece of mind and can later turn up the boost which is what you're going to want to do. I too was once like you saying I don't want big HP but let me tell ya, boost is addicting and you are going to want more! I'm running stock boost right now but will turn it up some when the funds allow.

Now with that being said, there are plenty of people around that have rebuilt with an OEM gasket running 10-12 psi with no problems because they did it right. Some stock 7Ms have lasted a long time on their stock head gaskets, some have not, so it's basically a crapshoot. If you go OEM, have the rebuild done right and don't turn up the boost too much and hopefully you'll be fine, but if not, don't whine about to us, we told you so. :icon_razz

 

[paul0075]

Well first I'll state my opinion and that would be to rebuild with a MHG. My rebuild cost about $2500 but I removed and installed the motor myself. I had the head and block rebuilt and used a Titan MS HG. If it's done right you have that piece of mind and can later turn up the boost which is what you're going to want to do. I too was once like you saying I don't want big HP but let me tell ya, boost is addicting and you are going to want more! I'm running stock boost right now but will turn it up some when the funds allow.

Now with that being said, there are plenty of people around that have rebuilt with an OEM gasket running 10-12 psi with no problems because they did it right. Some stock 7Ms have lasted a long time on their stock head gaskets, some have not, so it's basically a crapshoot. If you go OEM, have the rebuild done right and don't turn up the boost too much and hopefully you'll be fine, but if not, don't whine about to us, we told you so. :icon_razz

I agree, once the MHG is in and done right, then I will have peace of mind and turn up the boost higher if I want..
You are right boosting is addictive, my original plans were to get 400HP and had set about $4k-$5k thinking that would cover a complete rebuild, but boy I was wrong :nono:

My mechanic is the head mechanic for BMW but he also has his own shop; he worked on both my 740i and NA supra.. He worked on MK3 Turbo and Z300 Turbo. He even told me he used to work for Toyota back in Hong Kong and he visited TRD in Japan and told me what they do there, pretty impressive.
He only likes to use OEM parts (or close to; diff brand).. He is very reasonable when it comes to price and very smart and detail oriented.. I trust him.
I spoke with him earlier and he told me if I want to use MHG I should get it and he will send the head to get rebuilt..
But he will need specs on MHG job so he can do it right..
I'm so torn right now...

 

[Rennat]

i have a few questions though... why do a 5 angle vavle job? i didnt think that was even beneficial for our heads? and its not the head gasket that was bad, it was the torque spec, so if your head gasket has lasted this one, i would just reuse an oem one with some arp head studs. that way you know its torqued down, AND the oem/felpro head gaskets tend to fill in the minute high and low spots so they seal better if you dont get the block milled.

have you checked the oil to see if its a milkshake? or are you just assuming that its all just trashed?

and im sorry, but a mechanic charging you 5k to do a head gasket, thats pretty steep in my mind... there are people on here on who probably do a head gasket in less than 12hours... and from the sounds of it, hes a really good mechanic, so i would think he could do it in under 12hours easy. you should get a work order of what you would get for 5k and then scan it so we can look at it... and you said 1000 for the head, 2500 for labor. so thats 3500... where is the other 1500 coming from? lol

 

[paul0075]

i have a few questions though... why do a 5 angle vavle job? i didnt think that was even beneficial for our heads? and its not the head gasket that was bad, it was the torque spec, so if your head gasket has lasted this one, i would just reuse an oem one with some arp head studs. that way you know its torqued down, AND the oem/felpro head gaskets tend to fill in the minute high and low spots so they seal better if you dont get the block milled.

have you checked the oil to see if its a milkshake? or are you just assuming that its all just trashed/

I was told the head will get 5 angle, I thought 3 was good enough.
As a matter of fact, I just did check the dip stick and there is no milky shake LOL.
I also thought that the torque spec was bad not fully the HG design, and that's why I considered the OEM head gasket, or Felpro.. Any better than the other?
If I use OEM with ARP bolts (not sure if studs will work if I leave the block in the car) torque it to about 75lbs.. Would that be good idea?

The $5k quote was from Broadway Performance @ http://www.broadway-performance.com/ not from my mechanic..
They are VERY reputable shop and do great work.
The other 1500 was for the Cometic head gasket and all other gaskets and water pump, hoses and belts and battery I think he mentioned tial BOV with flang; I can't remember.
See it's my fault also, John at Broadway never looked at the car, he gave me estimate of what their work would cost.. He asked me to bring the car in to look at it, and maybe that price might change. But I don't think it would..

 

[Rennat]

tial bov? you cant just slap one of those on our cars... have to recirculate.

and yes, you could do the studs if you leave the block in the car, i think you just have to jack it up towards the front of the car... its possible and there are ways.

theres no point for a 5 angle vavle job other than to get more money from you. no mlik shake, then the HG probably hasnt penetrated the bearings yet, but you never know until you actually drain the oil to see. and its the torque spec thats bad, people use felpro gaskets on LOTS of things and they seal fine, from the sounds of it with the house and all, i doesnt sound like you have a TON of extra cash just sitting to modify the supra... so the OEM rebuild should be ok. plus people have gone several years on 10-12psi from a stock turbo. but its a supra, so its a real hit and miss sort of deal.

and you made sure to tell the mechanic it was a mk3 right? lol


after looking at the site, they probably think you have an mk4 which is why they said "including a tial bov" because those cars you can, but not on ours... and for an OEM rebuild, going to a "race" shop like that normally just ends up costing more.

 

[gtsfirefighter]

But he will need specs on MHG job so he can do it right..

I don't think I understand. Are you referring to what size HG it might need?
If so the machine shop that machines the head and block will tell you what thickness you'll need. If you go that route, be sure you have the block machined with the timing cover attached, otherwise your chances of not sealing will be very high.

 

[Rennat]

I don't think I understand. Are you referring to what size HG it might need?
If so the machine shop that machines the head and block will tell you what thickness you'll need. If you go that route, be sure you have the block machined with the timing cover attached, otherwise your chances of not sealing will be very high.

hes stated that he cant afford to do the whole sha bang. hes just doing a BHG job, you can just clean the block off, make sure its flat, and if its flat then awesome, but if its not, then you got problems... but you might as well get the head stuff taken care of, valve guid seals, valve seats, ect. so that way its less money down the road.

 

[jtran8]

300rwh ? you shouldn't have problem with Toyota gead gasket and ARP studs . New Toyota head gasket and Toyota head bolts 72 foot pounds last me 3 years on 15psi stock ct26 and almost 2 years on ct26 57 trim 17psi of boost ; recently notice some oil and coolant leak on side of engine block between head and block but no sign of smoke or over heat . I'm ready to tear down for head rebuilt and resurface only ; this time i'll use ARP studs 80 foot pound with Toyota head gasket . After done with it , i still want to run 17psi of boost on ct26 57trim . :icon_bigg

 

[paul0075]

I don't think I understand. Are you referring to what size HG it might need?
If so the machine shop that machines the head and block will tell you what thickness you'll need. If you go that route, be sure you have the block machined with the timing cover attached, otherwise your chances of not sealing will be very high.

I know that the shop will tell me the MHG thikness I should buy, but what I meant that my mechanic (not Broadway Performance) does only OEM specs; never used a MHG, I (he) need to know how to seal it and how to torque it.
About the timing cover being attached, I've heard stories with ppl taking it off before and had to re-do the job over. Thanks for the heads up

 

[paul0075]

300rwh ? you shouldn't have problem with Toyota gead gasket and ARP studs . New Toyota head gasket and Toyota head bolts 72 foot pounds last me 3 years on 15psi stock ct26 and almost 2 years on ct26 57 trim 17psi of boost ; recently notice some oil and coolant leak on side of engine block between head and block but no sign of smoke or over heat . I'm ready to tear down for head rebuilt and resurface only ; this time i'll use ARP studs 80 foot pound with Toyota head gasket . After done with it , i still want to run 17psi of boost on ct26 57trim . :icon_bigg

Now thats the kind post I was waiting for :icon_bigg
Quite Honestly, I'm not looking to up the boost above 6.8 (stock) and the car won't be my daily driver, I might even put about 3-4k miles a year if that!
I want to get the head ready in every way possible, inspect the block and clean it. slap on an OEM HG w/ ARP studs, torque it to 75lbs? maybe more..
My car is equipped with turbo timer, boost controller, and boost gauge.. I will be monitoring the boost.

My budget now is between $3k and $4k.. That includes freshen up the engine with hoses, belts and gaskets.
Once I get the engine to work fine, I will upgrade my CT-26, get a nice down pipe, and maybe Blitz NUR Spec exhaust down the road..

 

[Nick M]

MHG always ive made the mistake of felpro before when i had a 7m do it once do it right or do it again in 12mths after the first bhg they just keep coming with any other gasket then metal

That is because you are the weak link. Don't say you had it done right, because you didn't. Unless you are pushing 500+ horsepower, which that gasket was not designed to hold.

I have to disagree. If the block and head are flat but you don't feel it's good enough to put in a MHG I think OEM is just fine. Then again I've only rebuilt one 7M that way and got 40k plus out of it without a single issue.... The motor has since been pulled for a complete build so that's all the miles it has/will get with OEM.

Cliffs: MHG obv better, not always necessary.

That is right. All headgasket jobs will fail if you do not have a flat block. A headgasket job is not done by yanking the head. Unless you have checked the block with a machined straight edge, and a .001" feeler guage.

The difference between an OEM style gasket wether Toyota or Fel-Pro, which I wouldn't be suprised if they stock the North American gaskets, is smoothness of the deck surfaces. All head jobs need to be flat. Metal gaskets need a smooth deck, that you do not get on a standard cut. It will have swirl marks.